Posted by psgels on 17 August 2006 with categories: Ergo Proxy



After seeing this episode, I knew. I totally knew. This anime’s crazy!

Finally, the subs of Ergo Proxy return. I think that the reason for this was a combination of Shinsen’s laziness (they only seem to be actively working on project which are subbed by other people. That’s why they’ve been churning out so many blood+ episodes right after Your-Mom started subbing that series) and the fact that this episode was supposed to be near-impossible to see. After watching the episode, I totally can understand that.

The case is this: we have a Proxy, who likes to kill his victims by using a fully fledged quiz show, complete with autoraves as the audience and he even broadcasts his show. The goal of the quiz is to accumulate 1000000 points, within 30 minutes. If the contestant manages to do this, the host, aka the Proxy, dies. If this goal isn’t reached, the contestant dies. By doing this, the Proxy has already managed to kill 24 other Proxies. It isn’t surprising that he plans to make Vincent as his 25th victim.

The first round: a fixed set of questions about general knowledge. We really get thrown into the episode, without any information about this at all. That only makes the confusion better, with some great effects.
– Question one: Which Philosopher said “Man is a reed, the weakest of nature, but he is a thinking reed”? Honestly, I have no idea what a reed means, but apparently, Pascal was the one who said that. Vincent doesn’t know this either.
– Question two: Which ancient Greek mathematician formulated the theorem that determines the length f the sides of a right triangle. That’s a simple one, Pythagoras. Vincent, however, doesn’t know about this. Things like these make you start wondering about what kind of education Vincent followed in his youth.
– Question three: According to the English author Lytton, “the pen is mightier than” what? Another easy one, and Vincent indeed knows the answer: “Sword”.
– Question four: What is the phenomenon that describes the pitch of a sound becoming higher as the source approaches, and lower as it departs? Another physics question. I’m ashamed to admit that I couldn’t think of Doppler at that moment. Neither did Vincent.
– Question five: At how many degrees centigrade is water’s density the greatest? Of course it’s 4, though again, I couldn’t think of the answer. Vincent also had t wrong.
– Question six is a peculiar one…: Which question is this? The sixth, of course. :P
– Question seven: Who invited dynamite? The answer is Nobel, of course, though Vincent’s answer is quite funny: “Mr. Dynamite”.
– Question eight: In astronomy, the distance between which two celestial bodies is considered when defining an “astronomical unit”? Apparently, that’s the earth and the sun. I’m ashamed to admit that I didn’t know about it. Vincent also remains silent.
– Question nine is a brilliant one: What is the name of this song? Then the OP rolls.
It’s interesting. All of these questions are just basic knowledge, though this does show that time pressure can be powerful at times.

The introduction. It’s strange for a quiz-show to have one round first, and only after that round giving the explanation. Still, we already knew that this Proxy was rather eccentric. Apparently, the show is named Q-QQ-Q, and the Proxy introduces himself as MCQ. Then the explanation of the game follows, and I was startled a bit when I found out that MCQ would be dying as soon as the 1000000 points were reached. What follows was quite an amusing parody on a lot of different quiz-shows and then Vincent gets introduced to the audience. MCQ has a bit of a slow chat with the shy Vincent. Apparently, Vincent has accumulated 90000 points up till now. This means that, with probably 30000 per question answered correctly, Vincent does know the name of the OP. Quite interesting. ^^ Then, Real and Pino’s whereabouts are revealed. They seem to be in the supporters’ box, otherwise known as an unbreakable glass, soundproof tube. Both look quite pissed. ^^;

The second round: Who is this? We’re looking for a person. Every ten seconds, one hint is dropped. The more hints which are dropped, the less points you get.
– Hint one: He likes to wear black.
– Hint two: He’s got scary eyes.
– Hint three: He looks young. At this point, Vincent gives his first try: Real Mayer. She indeed likes to wear black, she looks young, and she certainly has scary eyes, especially in Vincent’s perspective. But she’s not a he, which means the answer is wrong, and I don’t think that Real liked it too much that Vincent saw her as someone with scary eyes. ^^;
– Hint four: He likes the cold.
– Hint five: He’s shy.
– Hint six: He thinks about Vincent a lot. This severely limits the possibilities. Vincent answers Pino, though that’s wrong again. She likes to dress in a bunny-suit, not black. Pino’s making some funny faces at that moment. ^^
– Hint seven: He’s quiet by nature.
– Hint eight: He’s tearful.
– Hint nine: He may be a two-timer.
– Hint ten: He always wins. This, indeed, has to be Ergo Proxy.
– Hint eleven: He’s naked beneath the blue sky. I’m suspecting that this is some kind of analogy.
– Hint twelve: A silhouette of Vincent, in Proxy-mode.
At the twelfth hint, Vincent also sees that the person is Ergo Proxy, and he answers. Very surprisingly, this episode suddenly turns from a strange filler to an episode dedicated to explain a few things about the background of this show. Vincent’s answer appears to be actually wrong. The right answer is Proxy One. This really is yet another one of Vincent’s aliases.

Round three: Mosaic Quiz. A distorted image is shown, and Vincent has to guess what it is. It seems like some sort of life cells, bearing a suspicious resemblance to the ones we saw in episode seven. Before we get to see the answer, MCQ gives a moment to the sponsors of the show, which appears to be the eye-catch. We never get to know the real answer afterwards, as we switch to Raoul. Apparently, he’s picked up the Proxy’s signal, and now knows exactly where Vincent is at that moment. This brings him back in the story. On the background, we hear Announcer-chan giving an explanation about something, though I don’t get it at all. The “Awakening” seems to have set a plan in motion, in order to attempt to preserve and transmit important data in the event the creator of something dies. In the land this takes place, there isn’t a need for a system to combat the planet’s environment, suggesting that there is some kind of place which isn’t poisoned and polluted like the rest of the world. For some reason, it seems that that’s the cause that the original bodies of some civilizations predecessors couldn’t be replicated so a new generation had to be constructed. Don’t ask me what kind of sense that’s supposed to make… In any case, this new generation was produced in a hurry, though they had nearly the same strength as the originals. In the end they weren’t strong enough for the project’s objectives, however. Still, despite these products being incomplete, he still embraced them. In return, these creations destroyed the world, so the creator failed to save the world that was.

Round four: Triple Chance. It’s the same as Round Three, but now Real and Pino have to guess as well. Real was quite funny when she got the chance to talk to Vincent again. What follows is a small history of the world, starting from the very beginning. Nothing new. Then, the distorted picture gets shown. It’s an unknown picture. Real doesn’t even bother playing along, and Pino pwns everyone once more by drawing a direct replica of the distorted picture. ^^ Vincent also has no idea.

And from this point, things really get interesting. The picture appeared to be a trump card, which was meant as a way for humans to escape the apparently fast-approaching Judgement Day. Apparently, at some point, humanity had gained the technology to migrate away from earth. It was created in a great hurry. The question remains: why was this technology never used? Or are we currently living in a world, abandoned by the humans who went to outer space? A world in which Humans have learned to survive after the Judgement Day? Quite an original setting for a sci-fi series, isn’t it?

Commercials: before the final round stars, a few commercials follow, and the stage for the final round is built up. The Proxy really stays in his role of host, even when the commercials have begun. Real and Pino are asked to leave, and it seems that commercials in the world of Ergo Proxy are exactly the opposite of what they are today: short.

The Final Round: More questions. A list of questions is asked, each correct one worth 30000 points. Vincent has to accumulate 910000 points, in order to win. Especially the first questions are very interesting, as they actually explain some valuable things about the world’s background yet again.
– Question one: What was the most important form of energy in the twenty-first century, formed by the compression of underground methane gas? Quite an impossible question for someone who isn’t into chemistry. The answer is methane hydrate.
– Question two: So, regarding that methane hydrate, a string of explosions in the reserves wiped out what percentage of the earth? It’s quite sudden, but it somehow does explain the current state of the world. At the twenty-first century, methane hydrate was the most important form of energy. This suggests that the substance is quite easily flammable, and that there were a huge amount of tanks, storing it. I’m suspecting that at one point, something went wrong, and one of these storage tanks exploded, causing a chain reaction in which a huge number of other storage tanks to explode as well. This wiped out 85% of the world population (the correct answer), turned the land into a wasteland and put the sky full of poisonous air. Still, there must’ve been a lot of methane hydrate in order to cause such a huge explosion.
– Question three: If you make an acronym out of the name f the plan to save humanity, you come up with double what? Another introduction for the next question. It appears to be Double P as the name of the plan to save humanity from these explosions. Vincent actually gets the answer, by trying things out.
– Question four is where the fun really starts: What is the biggest obstacle to the restoration of the human race? Proxy. Quite interesting. Especially when you compare it with the next question.
– Question five: How many Proxies were released as a result of the Double P, or Proxy Project? The PP was the plan to save humanity, though on the other hand, Proxies also are the biggest obstacle to the restoration of the human race. This definitely means that 300 Proxies (the right answer) were released, in order to stop the explosions, but this plan backfired horrifyingly. This, however, also means that Proxies were made by men. It also means that they were prepared. After all, you can’t just make them as if it’s nothing.
– Question six: What is the heartbeat of commencement? For some reason, it’s the end of the Proxy Project.
– Question seven: Cark Gustav Jung, a famous author on the subjects such as psychology and alchemy, revered which monarch? King of the Dead. I don’t know where this one fits in.
– Question eight: What was mankind’s other plan, which involved the creation of the Cogito virus? Boomerang Project. It’s got the same name as the rocket in the Triple Chance. Why are these two related? In fact, why was the Cogito virus released in the first place? In any case, it’s another plan of the humans which backfired.
Then, the questions stop informing about the background of the world, and show how Vincent keeps getting the answers right. This indeed shows that Vincent is special, even among the 300 other Proxies. There’s no way he’d be able to catch up this much in the final round, when twenty-four other Proxies have died before him. It seems that Ergo really wants to survive, no matter what. We’ve seen this before, though at that time, Vincent’s ability to survive was only compared to humans. Only now, it’s also being compared to the Proxies. I think the reason he’s special is because he’s Proxy One. This gives some clues that he was the first Proxy to be ever created/appear.

What follows is a small note about the Mistake Quiz. In which the audience has to find one mistake in the show. The previous show apparently showed some Koi Nobori, or huge fish flags, at which two scales missing. I have no idea where that came from, but ah well. I wonder if we’ll ever learn this week’s Mistake.

Then, MCQ says a final goodbye, in an interesting speech. Quite touching and original. Overall, I think this was a great episode. Not the best that Ergo Proxy has showed us, but it was definitely entertaining. I’m really loving these original methods the Proxies have for killing each other. Another thing I loved about the past two episodes was that you just get thrown into the scene, without knowing anything. And then at one point, you realize what’s going on.

11 Responses

  1. hayase says:

    Hahaha Ergo Proxy gets even loonier later on…or maybe that’s because I watched the raws lol

    But I’m very glad another subbed episode is out now. It has been a very long wait. =)

  2. Pete says:

    Where did you get the subs, i cant seem to find them anywhere :(.

  3. psgels psgels says:

    Pete: eh… I got them right from Tokyo Toshokan, by the fansub group Pino no Usagi.

    Hayase: Heh, when I first started the series, I never would have thought that it would turn out like this. =P

  4. Pete says:

    Thanks, and ya…. i didnt see this coming either :-P.

  5. Asakomi says:

    I don’t normally make many comments on blogs, but today I feel the need to speak up. First of all I want to thank you for your writeups on Jigoku Shoujo and Ergo Proxy. I’ve truly enjoyed reading your thoughts on two of my favourite series.

    However, I have to say that I was a little upset by the first paragraph of this entry. Specifically the following statement, “I think that the reason for this was a combination of Shinsen’s laziness (they only seem to be actively working on project which are subbed by other people. That’s why they’ve been churning out so many blood+ episodes right after Your-Mom started subbing that series)”

    I am a part of SHS’s Ergo Proxy team. I think I should point out a couple of things about the fansubbing process. First of all, our group has many members. These members have been split up into teams for each project. This means that we do not have the entire group working on every single project. Therefore, just because the Blood+ team has had the time and all members available on a regular basis for the many many hours/days required to complete a single episode, to churn out a bunch of episodes, doesn’t mean that EP’s team is in the same situation.

    Fansubbers have lives. All it takes is for one person on a team to have a real life problem, or just be busy in real life, to slow down a project. You might think that in these circumstances we should just get someone else to do it. However, people want to work on their projects. People *know* their projects. It’s not always so easy to just hand it off to someone else.

    We are not lazy. Our sub-teams are working as hard as they can on their specific projects.

    Finally, I wish to point out that Ergo Proxy has always been subbed by other groups. So, your theory that we only work quickly on series that are being subbed by other groups doesn’t really make sense.

    I hope I haven’t offended you. Just thought I would share my thoughts.

  6. psgels psgels says:

    Ah, yes. I’m sorry if I offended you. I indeed said it in a half-joking way. For some strange reason, all other fansubbing groups also never released anything beyond episode 14 for more than a month, which made me think that Shinsen didn’t continue subbing because of this. I’ve also noticed small details like that on a few other shows. But then again, I suppose that they’re indeed just coincidences, and a show like The Law of Ueki totally breaks this theory.

    Once again, hereby, I’m sorry if I offended the members from Shinsen-subs in any way. Apologies. I’m not really offended by you, as I had it coming when I made that comment.

    Still, I’m glad to see that people are enjoying my blog. ^_^

  7. Asakomi says:

    Thanks for responding. :)

    Since you’ve seen EP 15 you can probably see that it’s pretty much a typesetting nightmare. There’ve even been half-joking theories going around that the writers of the show made this episode to purposely make us fansubbers cry. :p

    Rest assured SHS is still working on Ergo and hopefully we’ll have our 15 out very soon.

    Keep up the great work on your reviews.

  8. TomandJerry says:

    Great to have EP back. It must be hard to watch this episode with subtitles. Ideally this should be dubbed. However, I noticed that there are a few mistakes in the subs. The panel quiz question should be what does it make, not what does it show. Carl Jung is known as the Lord of the Underworld not King of the Dead. MCQ refers her narrator as Soumi-chan, not Anouncer-chan. Yoko Soumi is the name of the voice actress who plays the narrator as well as one of the voices of the stone stature. I think she is the wife of Akio Ohtsuka, the guy who plays Batou in GitS.
    With regards to Shinsen alleged “laziness”, I can say that each projects run pretty much independently with different teams. We have all the translated scripts for Ergo Proxy up to episode 23. However at the moment, the team is on holiday hiatus this month. So it is a kind of like mid season hiatus. I am sure we will pick up the project next month. Obviously it would help if there are more volunteers coming forward to help us with timing.
    The blood+ project team is not on holiday. However we have been experimenting with monthly release of 4-5 episodes, rather than weekly releases. There are people who prefer stacking up per month and there are people who prefer one episode per week.

  9. Anonymous says:

    Did anyone else notice that Vincent stays looking all mousey in his try-to-blend-in-anti-proxy look until he starts to answer questions quickly? And the questions all have answers like: fate,scapegoat,oblivion,awakening,fighting,acceptance,and understanding, and maze. By the time he’s at acceptance/understanding, his hair is back to normal and his eyes are open completely. And when he says “maze” his voice sounded like it went into proxy-mode.

  10. Betty says:

    I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.

    Betty

    http://laptopprocessor.info

  11. Marilyne says:

    The image shown in the Mosaic Quiz is the room where humans are produced and raised to be perfect citizen in Romdeau, where Real end after she escaped her room in the hospital.

Leave a Reply

CHANGE USERNAME
Amagi
What I acutally find worse are series that make that canon and it happens all the time (not only in anime). Usually female/male though. I have nothing against romance but I hate how proper friendships between men and women can't exist in cartoons/anime. It's so common in real life but media acts if it was an alien concept to them. Maybe because of the target audience I don't know.
Amagi
I think these pairing of friends aren't just the fault of crazy fans, it's because anime often has a problem depticting friendships. Almost all friendships (at least those among girls) are fetishized to no end in order to either add ecchi or cute ambivalent scenes, and people get used to that. There are good examples of friendships, Rakugo is one, a current one would be Sora Yori, but it's rare.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Interesting that it's being updated to modern America though, I imagine the crime figures have changed alot though.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But I don't like sexualize Banana fishe's protag given how theres line in the manga later on that and I somewhat paraphrase where he speaks of the villain "I can't even remember the number of times Dino Golzine raped me"
Kaiser-Eoghan
Coincidentially as we're on this topic, I just watched the pv for that josei action series Banana fish coming out in July and from skimming the manga years ago , people will be insinuating a relationship between the two leads when its left ambiguous, even though the protaganist has homosexual leanings.
Anonymous1837358
Anonymous1836963 - Well according to some bl tropes, women are built into those stories to block the pairing advances. There's also the one off character that isn't romantically inclined but popular like Floppy in MHA or Bulma in Dragon Ball. I do think it's bad when like in Kingdom Hearts, Sora cries for Riku and was just ok with reuniting with Kairi.
Anonymous1837334
@AK Me again. Watch the epilogue in the last ep of Korra S3!
Anyway, basically we agree, I simply say that with Korra, it's explainable and non-invasive. Like, you'll always have romance shoehorned into mainstream series and Asami >>>>> Mako.
Lenlo
What, women cant be gay?
AidanAK47
@Anon, that's not true. They can still get beat up in order to inspire the boys to fight harder.
Anonymous1836963
It's why Sasuke/Naruto never happened. They had to keep Sakura relevant.
Anonymous1836963
If everyone in Anime were gay, there would be absolutely no use for women in any shonen plot. Sad but true.
Lenlo
The push to make Rakugo into a gay relationship has always annoyed me.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Feck, I re-read it, shows how shit my memory is.
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, No I didn't. I pretty much ruled it out it as early as episode three. I stated that people thought it and mentioned that it could lead to some interesting story developments. But I made it clear I didn't like the idea and felt it cheapened their bond.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lies it was hulk and iron man not hulk and black window....I mean jesus come oooon like =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
Some crack pairings can be extremely silly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: And I said it after remembering ages ago you said the same about guts and griffith and how people cheapened that relationship.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: I also stated that yesterday.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: In fairness initially some of us, yourself included thought he might of been at first before it was clear he wasn't gay.
AidanAK47
Truth be told, it pisses me off. It takes a bond of much deeper meaning and reduces it down to something far more simplistic and primal. Can't be that these two hold a trust for one another that's beyond simple biology. Nope, THEY WANNA BONE.
AidanAK47
But then again, the internet often over interprets friendship as sexual attraction. During Rakugo's airing I see people absolutely convinced that Yakumo was gay. Evidence? One bath scene apparently from his POV which made it seem like he was checking out Sukeroku and the fact that the author made a lot of BL. Other than that, nothing.
AidanAK47
Then again, romance in this series was always the worst written part. So many spontaneous relationships.
AidanAK47
Alright maybe you can make the arguement that later down the line while traveling they gained romantic feelings for each other. I can somewhat buy that. But there, in the last few minutes of the series? Hell no.
AidanAK47
To me it's like the Hulk and Black Widow romance. They had literally no real interaction and yet the internet somehow decided they were a couple. Then they tried to crowbar into the second avengers movie and it was just as awkward and out of place as you would expect.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Nah I don't see it. The two did really have that much interaction. Sure they got closer as seasons went on but never to a romantic level. At best it was about decent friends. Friendship I understand but that does not lead to romance. Both Korra and Asami had heterosexual relationships and no evidence shows them being bi or getting interested in swinging for the other fence.
Anonymous1836097
Yes, it was pandering, but it can be explained and it does make sense. I could complain about many things (like the random pairings), but Asami-Korra is definitely not among them.

PS: Korra was very feministic show, I wonder what's all that about.
Anonymous1836097
Asami was strangely always getting the short end of the stick (no power, noone to lean on... and it was aggravating to see no character to care). They were both betrayed enough times to get scarred and they both realized that (the one) constant around them is their friendship.
Anonymous1836097
@AK I dont consider Legend of Korra a well written show, but it does some things pretty well. Asami-Korra pairing certainly did not come out of nowhere (e.g. S3 last ep) and it makes sense as well.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Right in the KOKORO =O
Kaiser-Eoghan
**larger half of
Kaiser-Eoghan
*episode
Kaiser-Eoghan
For the better half of this weeks after the rain episodes, I was sitting around just watching it do its thing, the second half of the episode particularly near the end was the show at one of of its stronger visual moments and certainly going for the most effecting emotional angle its put out thus far in a way that finally caught me.
AidanAK47
I don't consider Makishima a great villain but one thing I found fantastic was him getting taken off guard by a sudden attack. Loads of anime criminal masterminds somehow plan for every single little detail no matter how unlikely. But this was one case that shows you could plan for ten years and nothing would prepare you for getting suddenly bashed over the head with a motorcycle helmet.
Lenlo
Makishima is a fantastic villain
Anonymous1835766
Kaiser-Eoghan - I think the closest might be Makishima Shogo in Psycho Pass. Just in the opposite sense, showing how flawed an absolutistic system is. Also a scene from that anime, that subverts the notion of how people are shocked by violence.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Moreso than the girls death obsession, I thought the stuff with the mother in the first chapter of yakedo has the potential to go in a more messed up way.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But he fails miserably and no one learns from his crimes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Why can't there be a BENEVOLENT killer character that commits horrible acts solely to shock people and show how horrifying those acts are, out of the delusion that it will inspire a reflection and change in people to NOT, to NEVER do those things.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*higher
Kaiser-Eoghan
Maybe an abused character is a servant in a historical setting with a hierarchy, trapped in societal rules and defeats the obsession with the attacker and raises up against the class system/character of hire social standing that abused them.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Perhaps the cannibal killer character in the story has abandonment, severe paranoia and lonliness issues and sees his crimes as taking people inside him so they'll never leave him.
Kaiser-Eoghan
of psychological depth instead?
Kaiser-Eoghan
For the willingness to throw messed up stuff into stories, I wouldn't mind seeing an analysis thrown in, doing a story about a cannibal character? How about instead of just a gore fest, get inside is head and ask, why does he do this? I hate Ntr and its used as a throwaway turn-on involving rape eroticism, but is there any any way that a story involving that could be framed with some sense
Kaiser-Eoghan
Back on to stuff like goblin slayer, they can take out the rape scenes I wouldn't miss them, although I find them less uncomfortable, BECAUSE they are shown as how wrong rape is, instead of say a doujin playing it up for titilation .
Kaiser-Eoghan
Despite all the talking up of tsunderes, I actually love kuuderes, in the end probably the biggest reason is for how flat chested they are.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Slapstick violence always plays second to dry, dark, screwball or surreal humour.
Bokusen
Also, on tsunderes, me too. I can't stand people using physical violence on someone unless it's in self-defense, or a Fate-type scenario where they all know everyone is trying to kill everyone else. Random physical violence played up as comedy is the worst.
Bokusen
@Kaiser Ah, so it was referring to bondage. I was skimming through posts and must've missed that. Bondage still creeps me out a bit, but if it's a fetish thing I can at least understand the whole exaggerated gender roles thing.
AidanAK47
In regards to Tsunderes, yep that was a bad choice of words there Kaiser. But over time I have come to find Tsunderes more agavating. Tsunderes like Rin are fine but those that beat the crap out of the guy they like and are expected to be forgiven cause they get embarrassed can go straight to hell.
AidanAK47
Also who cares who Korra ends up with? She a goddamn horrible character. I hated her so much.
AidanAK47
Korra was a show that had love realistionships come out of nowhere(And not well written in general) but that one really was just pandering to the Korra/Asami shippers. Not sure where the hell that ship came from to begin with.
Lenlo
I agree Aidan, the love at the end of Korra came out of Left field really
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: It was inappropriate and I shouldn't have said it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Heck one of the reasons I prefer seeing another character with another character or a character simply on their own in a fetish situation is because I can distance myself from it and not feel like I'm touching anything/one.
Kaiser-Eoghan
If anything I meant role reversal.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: I apologize, reading it back it sounds terrible, I was actually referring to bondage where the tsundere pretends to hate it initially but consents .
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: I should state clearly that that is merely a fantasy. The anger on both sides makes it easier because even if things became more physical or intimate it would feel more distant if the talking part was she and myself saying how much we hated it , despite actualily liking it.
Bokusen
"The thing is I utterly hate the personalities of tsundere characters in bitch/dom mode, sends me into a fervor to put them in their place." OK, reading that just creeped me out.
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, well you like screwed up stuff so no surprise.
Try Yakedo Shoujo. Get the feeling you will like that one quite a bit.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Legend of Korra? There was no yuri in that one. No evidence whatsoever. They just had Korra and Asami walk into some light and then announced them gay over twitter. Honesty I didn't see it in the show itself.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Also was it you that recommended happy sugar life to me? That was a pretty good psychological horror manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Going back several messages, I kind of liked goblin slayer oddly.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - Read Sakuranbo Syndrome.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: At the same time I really think more series like after the rain need to come out, showing more sensitive approaches.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Nudity/sex just isn't used functionally well enough or dramatically as it should. Come on, give us a story about passionette characters, sensual/erotic rather than only porn. Or do a scums wish where miserable people are doing it because saaaaad.
Kaiser-Eoghan
kuuchuu is really one of those things I need to re-watch, I became so much more open to weirder shows in the past number of years than I would have been ages ago.
Anonymous1832169
I think my excuse in hentai, is that despair, and subjugation adds drama to a very simple thing. Though Dawn of the Silver Dragon may be the peak of objectification.
Anonymous1832214
Sure, np, though I must be off. Again, nice to chat casually. Been off forums for a while. Bye.
PS: thank you gift for anyone not familiar https://myanimelist.net/anime/6774/Kuuchuu_Buranko?q=kuuchuu
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lets talk about the spring 2018 anime season chart: http://anichart.net/spring-2018
Kaiser-Eoghan
Mods, I'm sorry for hostaging/dominating the chat like this I'll change subject.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I do think official/canon pairings of characters make more sense definitely, non-canon ones can kind of cheapen characters.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I really really want to say though, I totally am not okay with rape in hentai though and I don't like 50 shades of grey.
Kaiser-Eoghan
To get off this subject, funny little random memory here of reading manga in public, back when I was still into fate, some street person sat down next to me and saw a picture of berserk and said "Oh, he's quite ripped isn't he"
Anonymous1832214
@Anon could be
@Kaiser Srsly youd hate Young's Aflame Inferno - narcissistic manipulative elite MC guy plays a sub to a playful manipulative OP demon woman. I love that so much..!
Kaiser-Eoghan
The old artists valued some interesting takes on beauty too, all of those middle aged larger bodies.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Someone has read this and gone off and done an Akira x Satan devilman doujin haven't they?
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the beauty and the beast thing, I wonder if characters like Elias from Mahouyome will become more popular. Monsterboys might end up catching on.
Anonymous1832169
Anonymous1832214 - I think so, I mean we paint angels following that idea.
Anonymous1832214
Thx for the talk guys (and girls). Btw. I'm the guy with weird nicks, Evaluation, Strength, Victim, etc in case anyone's wondering.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think regarding role switching and whether I prefer being dom or sub is definately based on which gender I'm playing, this goes back to the cliches of girl=the submissive character man=is the non-submissive.
Anonymous1832214
There's something about androgynous features, is there?
Kaiser-Eoghan
accept of course for the sensei, who looks like one-punchman.
Anonymous1832214
Seems consistent with your preferences towards domination. Open your heart more and feel the love. They cant help themselves. They need you to get it out. Why not play the mature person, not play the game and accept their flawed selves?
Kaiser-Eoghan
Specifically due the ambiguity.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Houseki's character designs and art is fascinating.
Anonymous1832169
I like the idea of women pretending to be men and men pretending to be women. Not necessarily transgender, just in the sense of playing the role like Hercules and Diomedes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Hating them makes it easier/better aswell.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The thing is I utterly hate the personalities of tsundere characters in bitch/dom mode, sends me into a fervor to put them in their place
Anonymous1832214
I wouldnt mind being a dominated by a (good-hearted) Pandora. So I guess I have no idea how you can even say that...
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lol now we're getting into liking certsin things because their so non-pc =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
The idea of me taking on a female role and being dominated by a woman is bizzare to me , taking on a female role and being dominated by a man, yes.
Anonymous1832214
Yeah got it. Like Senjougahara? Lol.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But she still holds on to the delusion that she's in control.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Wait, to be more specific, I was saying I liked the idea of making a tsundere girl submit, with the tsundere becoming the sub.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Youngs manga work better than say, something like ikkitosen/highschool dxd/seikon no qwaser/highschool of the dead because they go all out with the exploitation .
Anonymous1832169
I do see a correlation between the feminine guys in yaoi and the token girls in otome. I swear I don't get why otome and other young girl series, like to play the bad boy and misogynistic treatment of women. I think they we might have lost the point in Beauty and the Beast.
Anonymous1832214
Kaiser... do you know Im Dal Young's manga? Freezing, Unbalance x Unbalance, etc. He often puts the women in the dominant role. He's gotta have a thing for it. I love that.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think going back to the complaints of yuri on ice not having enough bite to it, its the same as the fanservice in josei manga with the ambiguous bromances.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm a really pretentious guy, I love going into the psychology of it all.
Anonymous1832169
@Kaiser-Eoghan - As one teacher told me, the most memorable characters are the contradictory ones.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The western side often feels more tokenistic at times.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The feminine male character exists as a safe zone for the female reader.
Kaiser-Eoghan
No wonder I enjoyed haru deiteita so much, it did the reversal thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Yet people don't understand this when I say I find tsunderes attractive, what could be more appealing to me than a tsundere ending up losing the dominant role and becoming submissive?
Anonymous1832169
@Kaiser-Eoghan - I think I like that dichotomy, because since manga is already androgynous one does accept it more. Especially since of anime thread the line of making their male characters submissive. Also in a more design sense it might be because there's a power dynamic at play. That's why there's also harassment.
Anonymous1832214
I also agree that yuri is more established and accepted. Particularly in western media, which are starting to catch up? (lesbians everywhere...) Legend of Korra anyone?
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The weirdest thing is from my own perspective, when I play the female role in the relationship I understand taking on a more submissive role, yet in a male role, with a women I find being in a non-dominent role impossible.
Anonymous1832214
@Kaiser I'm not going to defend KnM, valid points. Again, it's done enough. And - I have a thing for tragic/platonic love so KnM clicked...
Anonymous1832169
Yuri can be cold, harsh and seduction is usually a weapon. Though a tiring trope is that most stories treat the couple as kind of sister type of affection. Or so I feel.
Kaiser-Eoghan
In terms of the pairings, my headcanon doesn't understand the petite-man thing in male to male relationships relationships/pairings , yet petit women I am obsessed with.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - I do agree. I suppose for me or at least when I did start watching it, it felt more risque, since at least in media lesbians seem more accepted than gay or flamboyant men. So I think the draw for me might be emasculation, because of the uke and seme dynamic. It is said the reason for that is to project their female audiences in more of a dominant role or something like that.
SuperMario
Hmm, I watched few episodes of Sekaiichi Hatsukoi and it's the romance that turned me off. It's just plain secual harassment
Kaiser-Eoghan
In some way its easier to physically work it out mentally.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which leads to the interesting phenomenon of fudanshiism.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The bizzarest thing is I am significantly more attracted to women than men yet find shounen-ai/yaoi more of a draw, while admitting the shoujo-ai/yuri stories out there are better.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I recall actually liking the music in gravitation at one point.
Kaiser-Eoghan
As silly melodrama it was somewhat watchable.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I felt that a certain off colour scene with Chikane felt like character assassination.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But the characterization and mecha fights are particularly messy in kannazuki, especially bringing the manga into it where the villains didn't even get 1 second backstories and the framing of the art and panels is poor, with some of dialogue, at least in the dub sounding very silly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Regarding kannazuki, I'm not going to doubt that it a kyoshiro aren't rip roaringly hilarious guilty pleasures, not that this dimnishes the anons take on the female lead.
Anonymous1832214
KnM is trash anime, but very endearing and a treasure. I love it.

(Just passing by, I'm straight male with a thing for yuri genre).
Anonymous1832169
And I think Gravitation is also because music is also part of the plot and not solely the romance. I think the last one I enjoyed was Love Stage but that only had a thing going with one side being biconfused. Though it didn't do anything with that.
Anonymous1832214
Kannazuki no Miko has a heroine who readily accepts her feelings and is in a position where it is very difficult not to empathise. Her love seems very pure and to me is very rewarding to watch.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - Yeah but then you have Utena, Aoi Hana, Noir, El Cazador de la Bruja, Madoka, and several other series that just happen to have lesbian couples. In terms of good or recognizable shounen ai, it's harder, since I think the most recognizable is Gravitation, followed by (maybe) the Nakamura ones (Seikachi Hatsukoi and his other series).
Kaiser-Eoghan
The manga is even worse than the anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
There are truly terrible yuri series though I'm sure, no idea how Kannazuki no miko became a cult thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Sadly there's too much rape in yaoi.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Oh, the gender roles thing is terrible in those things. Plenty of gay men are masculine irl.
Anonymous1832169
Borrowed from Japanese 百合 (yuri, “lily”), by analogy to 薔薇 (bara, “rose”), indicating gay men.
Anonymous1832169
Shoujo AI and even Yuri, are more romance than eros. There could be like 10 or more chapters without any intimate action and I suppose that's also part in why yuri tends to achieve better stories.
Anonymous1832169
Also the formula is so transparent that one scrolls to the end, to see ehem, the good part.
Anonymous1832169
And finally like the typical chick flick there's rarely anything important beyond the relationship. I even say those who try a little may be the better ones in this genre.
Anonymous1832169
Now you know what you should expect. Because that's the issue. In Shounen Ai or Yaoi for the most part. Secondary characters have no issue with these relationships. Second problem is that the couple both are put in the male and female part of the relationship.
Anonymous1832169
In defense of yaoi. Do anyone know the meaning behind that word? From Japanese やおい (yaoi), an acronym of Yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi (ヤマなし、オチなし、意味なし), "no climax, no point, no meaning
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm actually not even overly interested in either show.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But yes, its stupid that yuri on ice didn't go all the way.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I believe citrus is actually aim at girls, going by the magazine its serialized in.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And a yuri manga would probably be more explicit than shoujo-ai.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Well you're comparing shounen-ai to yuri , so of course citrus will be more explicit , just like yaoi would be more explicit than shounen-ai.
AidanAK47
And I am not arguing that gay people can't have fanservice shows. As a matter of fact I am arguing why the bar is so much lower. Yuri on Ice has people fangirling over an "implied kiss" while I look over to the other side to see Citrus reaching second base.
AidanAK47
@Anon, not say you can't like the show but it was queer baiting. The show was comical in how it it made it clear it's characters were gay but didn't even have the balls to show a kiss on screen. Meanwhile you have Citrus here showing two girls having full make out sessions without trouble. I have no interest whatsoever in seeing two men kiss but even I can admit that is bullshit.
KTravlos
interesting conversation. Must say I do not usually react much to the sexuality of characters in anime, but this is partly because I might not see the problem, or because most of the anime I watch have sexuality only incidentally.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Of course I don't want to dismiss the fact that hentai manga for gay men exists,if one wanted it there is seinen yaoi, ie Bara manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which I attribute it to being less passive than just watching something.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I will say, I do think self-insertion is more effective in relation to videogames.
Kaiser-Eoghan
On this I as a bicurious man agree, when I read a romance story, I just want ad like a romance ore relationship story, its not special to me what the race or orientation of characters are.
Kaiser-Eoghan
My brother also felt that romance stories involving homosexual characters often falter in a space where the same sex pairing becomes more about pure novelty than just being a love story.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Imredjimmy, who posted on here as a user before, he himself homosexual had issues with yaoi manga, feeling that it didn't address issues properly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
He feels "All romance stories belong in the romance section and shouldn't be too categorized and that most yaoi/yuri isn't really for the homosexual audience"
Kaiser-Eoghan
Is it really fanservice for a homosexual audience though? I do find both male and female characters attractive as a bicurious man but it has to be admitted, shounen-ai and yaoi is really a thing for girls and bi men, I can admit that. My brother, a gay man is very critical of yaoi/shounen-ai as well as yuri/shoujo-ai.
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