Posted by psgels on 11 July 2009 with categories: Shoutbox Topics

Okay, so the discussion has been going on in a number of posts and shoutboxes, but the subject is interesting so I decided to make one post about it. Blogsome unfortunately doesn’t support the option to move comments, so I’ll instead quote what the different people have said about it. It first appeared in the shoutbox. Unfortunately the shoutbox stores everything in reverse order and the beginning of the discussion has already been eaten, but I’m too lazy to fix it.

Tracer: overlooked.
8 Jul 09, 22:33
Tracer: Also, PaTRiX’s point on not knowing a lot of the animes from the 80s and 90s is very true. Back then, fansubbing wasn’t as easy as prominent as it is now so the bad shows weren’t subbed and they were
8 Jul 09, 22:28
Tracer: Though regardless, like tealovertoma said, regardless of the low sales, someone will always make some creative and original series.
8 Jul 09, 22:27
Tracer: I’m not trying to say that all good anime sell well (for example, every anime by Yuasa is a failure in terms of DVD sales) but a lot more are successful than what people might think.
8 Jul 09, 22:25
Tracer: Baccano! sold on average about 2000 units per volume (decent numbers). Terra e was selling around 10k per volume. GiTS: SAC was selling near the 20k range. Mononoke was also about 8k-10k per volume.
8 Jul 09, 22:23
Tracer: I don’t think we have to worry about there being less innovative anime because they don’t sell. Believe it or not, some good anime actually sell quite a bit.
8 Jul 09, 21:13
PaTRiX: The thing about the ratio is probably true, but in the late 80’s and the 90’s we didn’t know about the crappy anime. So that makes it feel like there was more good anime.
8 Jul 09, 21:11
PaTRiX: and the animation style. That’s the main “problem” people complaining about “new anime” have even if they don’t even know it themselves. But the same is true form almost anything.
8 Jul 09, 21:11
tealovertoma: There will always be a market for creative and original ideas. Be it in anime, tv shows, movies or music. It’s not like it’ll die out, and I agree with Tracer, the ratio is higher. Great list btw.
8 Jul 09, 21:10
PaTRiX: But I’m going to repeat this, if you have watched anime for 10 – 20 years you have seen allmost all the stories that could possibly happen. The only thing that changes is how they are told …
8 Jul 09, 21:07
PaTRiX: And what people like reverse probably want to say is that some over the top 80’s or 90’s anime is still better than some generic harem anime. It’s a matter of taste probably, but I’m with them.
8 Jul 09, 21:04
PaTRiX: The last thing reverse said is true, the different and more interesting things sell less. So they are produced in lower quantity because they are harder to produce than say a generic harem anime.
8 Jul 09, 20:47
reverse: those innovative idea don’t sell well . so it not surprise, we will see less of them
8 Jul 09, 20:29
reverse: who you referring to tracer. yes we got innovative anime every year, i only disappointed that the anime consumer
8 Jul 09, 20:22
Tracer: It’s not like the ratio of good-to-bad shows is any less lower than befre.
8 Jul 09, 20:21
Tracer: We still get some very interesting and innovative anime every year like Kaiba, Kino’s Journey, Terra e, Nodame Cantabile, Samurai Champloo, GiTS: SAC, Dennou Coil, Baccano!, Mononoke, Gankutsuou etc.
8 Jul 09, 20:16
Tracer: I really don’t see some drop in quality in recent anime. It’s just that instead of the over the top anime of the 80’s and 90s, now it’s a lot of “moe” shows.
8 Jul 09, 20:14
Tracer: For every anime like LoGH, Rose of Versailles, Akira, Touch, you had some equally ****ty fanservice show or some horribly cliche super robot crap.
8 Jul 09, 20:08
Tracer: You’re simply being ignorant if you think the “good, old times” were full with masterpieces or some other ridiculous nonsense.
8 Jul 09, 19:15
tealovertoma: …companies. We still get the character development that old shows focus on, but more experimentation. But yes, there’s also a lot of bad shows.
8 Jul 09, 19:14
tealovertoma: … about old anime better than new anime; we’ve had loads of masterpieces in the past decade. Moreso than any decade before as far as I’m concerned. Plenty of creativity and freedom for production…
8 Jul 09, 19:13
tealovertoma: It sounds like you’ve just been disappointed by 2 (maybe a few more?) anime that seemed promising. Is that all? Cause we get several masterpieces every year. In that case you’re not really talking…
8 Jul 09, 19:11
Howling-kun: Hm, I gotta disagree with you reverse. Specially shows directed by Shinbo Akiyuki tend to have very weak first episodes.
8 Jul 09, 18:58
reverse: Howling-kun every anime nowadays have awesome first episode ( xamdd, eden ) just name it, the problem is their don’t deliver. anyway i will check Bakemonogatari
8 Jul 09, 18:44
PaTRiX: This happens with every kind of hobby you could have, the fact is that people complaining are probably people who have seen too much anime.
8 Jul 09, 18:42
PaTRiX: It’s not that anime nowadays is bad. In fact it’s probably better than before, but if you have seen, for example, 5 animes about football (soccer) how many new different ways can the story go after?
8 Jul 09, 18:39
PaTRiX: … That’s what I feel now. I need something that I really like (or that I am a fanboy of) or something that is really different to be excited about an anime.
8 Jul 09, 18:38
PaTRiX: … because the stories have not evolved that much. I say this because it happens to me. And even if I’m not searching anything fancy, just want some cool mindless violence I’ve kind of “seen it alll”
8 Jul 09, 18:35
Howling-kun: Bakemonogatari is out subbed. Excellent first episode.
8 Jul 09, 18:34
PaTRiX: I think that the fact is not that anime was better before but that the kind of people who watched akira on the big screen and dragon ball and dr slump on tv when they first aired are becoming bored ..
8 Jul 09, 17:59
PL: whereas, if the industry wasnt profitable, there wouldnt be any anime
8 Jul 09, 17:58
PL: but that leaves plenty of room for more artistic and intelligent shows
8 Jul 09, 17:58
PL: the best way to ensure an artform endures is to make it profitable, which unfortunately means you will have anime which appeals to the masses
8 Jul 09, 17:43
reverse: not to mention most anime fan don’t know what is a good animation even it hit them on the face. example anime fan are happy staring at unmoving pic for 5 second. none complain at that stuff in anime.
8 Jul 09, 17:28
tealovertoma: …anime try out some from the more experimental side. Yes, it’s true that a lot of masterpieces are overlooked and ****ty shows are popular, but it’s like that every where.
8 Jul 09, 17:27
tealovertoma: Easier to be pessimistic than optimistic, right? Stop being nostalgic about a time you weren’t even alive. We get more intelligent anime than ever before — if you’re tired of conventional harem….
8 Jul 09, 17:17
reverse: show like Sengoku BASARA sale like 10000+ dvd in a week. untalented people get pay more. anime industry is doomed i would say.
8 Jul 09, 14:13
Solaris: I also think nowadays anime are nice and flashing but are lacking of contents.
8 Jul 09, 08:54
psgels: I think the “empty of contents and spirit” is a bit vague. What does it mean for a series to have spirit? And isn’t this different for everyone?

The discussion basically began when Solaris claimed that anime nowadays is “empty of contents and spirit”, and reverse claimed that “now almost everything get animated. the standard sure is low.”, from which the above discussion erupted. It then continued in the Aoi Hana post:

“Bakemonogatari: Once you remove all of the fancy filters and confusion that the first episode threw at us, you remain with a story that lacks depth and characters that are just the average stereotypes”
Maybe it was this i sensed when i watched Bakemonogatari’s first episode. It’s a fancy colored box with nohing inside.
Pity it happens more and more often nowadays. Anime’s graphics continues improving but contenents keep decreasig

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 12:02
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“Pity it happens more and more often nowadays. Anime’s graphics continues improving but contenents keep decreasig”

Lol @ this being applied to Bakemonogatari, NisiOisin isn’t considered the god of light novels for nothing.

Comment by Westlo — July 11, 2009 @ 12:25
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@westlo.
I judge for what i watch to. Anime and novel are related only by topic. One could be utter crap while the other could be plain art.
My first impression on Bakemonogatari anime was negative, as they wanted to keep our interest with that flashing graphics, but that there wasn’t that much of a story to begin with.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 12:38
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Solaris: nah. Bakemonogatari may be one example of a soulless series (which if we were to believe Westlo, doesn’t even seem to be true), but there are plenty of series with a soul this season (Aoi Hana, GA, Umineko, Tokyo Magnitude, Spice and Wolf and Umi Monogatari, not to mention the series from previous seasons).

I agree that the seventies and eighties had some wonderful series, but even those days had their share of disasters, which in most cases were even worse than the crap we see today. Glass Mask, for example, was a really bad series, and there are probably plenty more of those series back then.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 12:47
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Well, anime has always been a media for the crowd. Anime production surely grew up since 60’s both in graphic quality and in number of products. It eventually became well known worldwide too. Now after 50 years of anime we are reaching saturation. Crap haw always existed, but why now it looks like we have too much of it lately? Maybe is just a matter of quantity. We have little formats for anime and a huge amount of products now. We have too many products that resemble each other. We’re loosing originality. Soeone just told this before: now it’s no more a matter of creating new stories, but how well you can manage to tell them and how good you let them appear. So, focus is being biased from contenent to appearance. So it’s no more the matter of telling a story that it looks so generic, like in bakemonogatari. The matter is to capture the audience with good graphics, or moe char or whatever mean, but good storytelling. That’s the real issue.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 13:43
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With “the amount of bad series has increased”, do you mean the total amount of bad series produced each year, or the amount of bad series in relation to the amount of good series? There are of course more bad series out there than twenty years ago, simply because much more anime are produced these days. Today however, there are still plenty of series with good storytelling IMO, also with a bigger quantity.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 14:00
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The main appeal of Bakemonogatari is the dialogue and conversations between characters which is never wasted… which is what you expect from light novels.. Hardly something I would classify as a pretty anime with no substance.

“Crap haw always existed, but why now it looks like we have too much of it lately?”

I’ll tell you why, can you name another show that aired in the same season as Evangelion did? You’ve had the best titles cherry picked from the 80-90’s without seeing the amount of crap that aired during the same time.

It’s pointless to say “Anime was consistently better back in the day” when you don’t even know the majority of shit that aired back than.

Here’s a list of what aired in 95

http://www.animenfo.com/animebyyear.php?pagenumber=1&action=Go&perpage=30&year=1995

Don’t tell me that’s better than 2006 or 2007 or you’re overdosing on nostaglia. Eva and GITS Movie are the only real notable shows from that year. Majority of 95 ranges from mediocre to crap if you look at it without rose tinted glasses.

Comment by Westlo — July 11, 2009 @ 14:04
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I’m not saying that I like the old show better. but i do agree with solaris to some extent, almost everything get animeted now, the standard sure is low.

Comment by reverse — July 11, 2009 @ 14:29
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Psgels i didn’t say that. I just say the amount of series overall increased, thus implied the bad series also increased. The question is, did the proportion between good and bad remained stable or not? I think it decreased a lot. That is to say you will find more bad series nowadays with respect to the good ones.

Westlo, if we take that is the real amount of anime produced in that whole year 1995, then notice that that’s average the number of series nowadays produced in a single season.
The question is, are there many more good series now with respect to back then? I think we have less, but luckily that’s my IMHO ;).

Of course whan we speak of good and bad we should make clear what we intend for. “good” is such a subjective matter. But this would generate another full thread, so let us it be by now.

I watched anime since 70’s. I could tell you a lot of what happened back then. The situation of 80’s was very interesting, as it resembled what it’s happening today. Back then the most popular format were Big Robots anime stile (not mecha) and magical girls show. After 10 years they exploited such genres there were a big lack of new ideas. So with the start of the new decade they searched new ideas and format to make anime. The market succeeded in renewing itself back them. New genres were made and the anime “maturity” also evolved. As anime public grew, there was the need of much mature series. It wasn’t anymore just a matter of kids show. Series like Sailor Moon or Evangelion also renewed the old magical girl and robot formats. Lodoss introduced western fantasy style and Tenchi Muyo invented the new harem genre. Now also these formats are coming to exaustion. Will the anime market be able to create new contents genres and stories in the future? From what i see now, the market is closing itself to those genres that are still popular and they know it will sell. There isn’t search for newa, just to wrap up something with a good container and sell that.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 14:57
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That last paragraph is interesting, but at the time of the invention of these new genres, there also was a lot of bad stuff going on. Based on my impressions, if you look at 1995 the ratio of good to bad shows is about 11:27. Based on the same standard, the ratio of good to bad shows of the past spring season is for me 19:17, which is much higher. So I don’t agree that today’s anime lacks sould.

However, if you meant to say that today’s anime lacks originality, then okay, I can see more in that. The only series that really attempted to go beyond genres of the past spring season was Marie&Gali (Eden of the East, though impressive, was just another mystery-series in the end, although it did try). 1995 had Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell, the beginning of CG, Memories and in a way also the Ping Pong Club (raunchiest fanservice ever in a TV-series at least) and Romeo’s Blue Skies (combining WMT with action). I agree that today’s anime should be more experimental, and daring to try out new stuff, but that’s not the same as today’s anime having lost its soul.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 15:35

I personally believe that anime could be more experimental and ambitious nowadays, but it has nothing to do with the quality: there are plenty of anime series with soul, and the ratio of good compared to bad series is much higher than it was twenty years ago. Still, I’d love to see what anime can evolve into.

So, what are your opinions on the matter? Are there too many harems and lazy adaptations of bishoujo games; is there an overload of moe in today’s anime market, or is it all just overly exaggerated and is moe underrated?

40 Responses

  1. Kim says:

    It just rose colored nostalgia. It’s easy to look back and remember all the good series of the past. However there were plenty of bad series as well back then those just tend to be forgotten. And while I do think there is a lot of crap today there are still a lot of great series. Ten years from now we will probably be having the same discussion about this decade.

    But hey I can’t blame people for having rose colored nostalgia. I might not have it when it comes to anime but as a classic film buff I certainly have it when it comes to live action movies.

  2. LK says:

    Kim is spot on. Rose coloured nostalgia. Just like your parents/grandparents reminisce about the 1950s as a great time to live.

    I’m of the opinion that I’m watching more anime today because of the quality, alot of which is experimental while still remaining commercially viable (Noein springs to mind for its visuals during fights, likewise East of the Eden breaks a few traditional anime styles).

    But this is also biased by the fact that fan-subbed ‘digital copies’ of anime are easier to come by than DVD and dare I say video copies in the past.

    But at the end of the day, if anime loses its ‘soul’, than people will stop consuming it.

  3. Rednights says:

    I’m enjoying the living shit out of One Piece right now. The last “great” recent anime I ever seen was Seirei no Moribito. Another recent example is Bokurano. So yeah anime is still good =)Though yes it’s sad I can list only 2 in terms of “good story telling”. Haruhi and Code Geass are what we call guilty pleasures … so those don’t count.

    BTW. Gainax ruled the the world way back then … I woudln’t mind if they came out with something new and destroyed all these cutesy anime companies …. and no I did not see Eva 2.0 yet =( See? new anime is still godly ….

  4. tealovertoma says:

    tl;dr

    seriously though, any chance you can make the post slightly shorter? >>;

  5. reverse says:

    this pretty hard topic, it not about what the best,worse or average anime being make today or before. it about the way that the industry is going. the “soulless” anime that solaris referring still sale better. in the end it all come down to the consumer. personally I think most Japanese are bad consumer. that why we see crappy sequel sale better
    FYI I have no colored nostalgia, and my fav anime is birdy02 ( that just finish being aired )

  6. ancalyme says:

    (sorry for all the ‘you’ in this post. It’s the general ‘you’, not aimed at anyone specifically XD)

    The ‘lost its soul’ comment is ridiculous, especially when you have Konnichiwa Anne, Kemono no Souja Erin and Aoi Hana running right now; those work basically on soul /alone/. Originality? Someone name me ONE season that didn’t have at least one good experimental series in the last couple of years. That’s four per year, at minimun, and usually a lot more. Oh, but I’ve ‘only’ been following anime seasonally since 2006.

    As for the rest – yes, what we enjoy in zillion copies per season now used to be original in 1995, but we’re not living in 1995. Should we sit back and reminiscence about how amazing it was back then, when the genres have been improved and brought to perfection today? Why pine for the clumsy pre-digital animation? Nobody uses it anymore not because it’s too expensive, but because it’s expensive and looks like crap. Even the digital Pandora’s animation is almost universally hated because it looks ‘old’.

    Anime is much more enjoyable if you see each series as a unique experience, instead of a link in a progression of links that each look like each other. Because it’s not. That’s why I like this blog, it treats each show as its own entity regardless of what came before or after it, and judges it by its own value instead of by proxy.

  7. shingoku says:

    Hum, first post here :p

    I don’t think anime nowadays is good or bad, it’s just different from your 80’s or 90’s anime.

    It’s exactly like video games with the dumb debate of casual VS Elitist gamers.

    My first anime was Dragon Ball Z on french television .. fifteen years ago and since that time, I have been enjoying anime and its evolution.

    Like others have said it’s now harem-crap compared to super-robot-crap in the 80’s.

    My favorite anime is Logh but new animes continue to deliver so nothing to complain :D

    And thank you for all your reviews Psgels. It helped me to find very nice anime ^^

  8. Camario says:

    There might be a few objective differences, but I think it’s pointless to pretend that every past period of time was better for anime than today.

    I don’t really think we can make absolute statements about increased or decreased quality without being aware of the real truth behind the entire industry.

    Anime is a medium for entertainment and sales, period, everything else that you can add on top of that is only a bonus. Western viewers are biased because they only ever see a small fragment of all anime at any given time.

    To quote something Hideaki Anno himself was already saying back in 1996:

    “The people who make anime and the people who watch it always want the same things. The creators have been making the same story for about 10 years; the viewers seem to be satisfied and there’s no sense of urgency. There’s no future in that.”

    You could argue that Evangelion was an attempt to change this, but it would be hard to deny that this is a cycle that will continue for a long time.

    Even then, just because something is or isn’t original doesn’t really say anything about its inherent quality. You can make a profoundly original work that fails and an entirely derivative one that succeeds, both critically and financially instead of just one or the other.

  9. AlexS says:

    To answer the initial question, I don’t think anime nowadays is at a standstill.

    When I see the list of my favorite anime, they were nearly all produced within this decade (ex: Mushishi, Welcome to the NHK, Haibane Renmei, Koi Kaze, Kaiba, Spirited Away). Others were not (Akira, most of the best ghibli productions, etc), but they concern mostly films (for which I concede the 80’s and 90’s were more interesting).

    One thing seems to me very clear: there are more and more “mature” anime, which in itself is an objective and welcome evolution. By mature I mean anime that analyse with somewhat more subtility relationships among young (5cm/s, Koi Kaze, Paradise Kiss) and old people (Ristorante paradiso, Mushishi), or anime that portrait other aspects of life and society than just school life (welcome to the NHK, Genshiken) or focus on other things than fights, even when in fantasy settings (i.e. Wolf and spice)

    Apart from the reluctant integration of cgi, I agree that there has not been a lot of interesting developments on the graphics side (I don’t say there were none, I just mean that it was nothing special, and the best of the 80’s and 90’s could easily beat the present decade average). It’s mostly the themes who have evolved, and at least for myself, become more interesting.

    In the future, I hope we get more anime about adult relationships (post-marriage, divorce, having kids, etc), or alternative sexualities. In manga, the material is already there, it’s just a question of adapting it (ex: usagi drop, hourou musuko, Youtsuba&! and many others). Since Aoi Hana is from the same mangaka as Hourou Musuko, this will probably happen.

    I also hope we can get more diversified slice-of-life stuff, which is my favorite genre. Hataraki Man was a nice debut, but there are many other manga to adapt.

    Essentially, it all boils down to manga. I think there are interesting things being produced (solanin, undercurrent, niccoichi, etc) that defenitely could be used to start new genres in anime, or more modestly just provide for interesting anime.

  10. Patrick says:

    I think the problem comes mainly from the fact that that in 80’s and 90’s bad anime was filtered for us by companies. So when I discovered anime here in Spain we only had the best animes of their genres or at least the more famous.

    Now we get anime directly from the source and the problem here is that we have to do the filtering ourselves. Add to that the fact that most of us are probably watching A LOT more anime that 5 or 10 years ago because of fansubs.

    I think the result is obvious. And, well, people get bored when they have seen the same story too many times (even if it’s not really the same story).

  11. TJR says:

    At this point, I don’t think quality is too much of an issue. There’s always good and bad, and older anime was no exception.

    On the other hand, the market is indeed narrower now, which has been acknowledged by both creators and industry commentators. Producers are so fixated on hardcore otaku tastes, making it tough to attract new audiences.

    We have broadcasters like Fuji TV (noitaminA, NOISE) trying to buck the trend, but by and large, the emphasis is on very niche content.

  12. Denizen says:

    I find it hard to believe there is any sort of decline, only a shift in market, which naturally tweaks the opinions of different people.

    Ask me for “great old shows” and I can hardly think of any. Most of the shows I consider the best I have ever watched are post-2000.
    In fact, ask me for great shows before 2007, the time when I truly started getting into weekly anime, and that question is not so easy either. It definitely shows cherrypicking at the past.

    The 00s have some examples of fantastic animation, with the work of Imiashi, Yutaka Nakamura, Shingo Yamashita and the continued efforts of people such as Norio Matsumoto, not to mention the built-upon influences of people animators such as Itano. The best animation of before is nowhere near as good as the best animation of today, I think.

    Equally, detailed shading or not, I much prefer the art and illustration styles of today. I much, much prefer the cleaner designs of Range Murata and Kenichi Yoshida than the blobby, huge foreheads, massive chins and ugly eyes that frequented the past – old anime is uglier to me, i’ll take today’s style over it. True, you have the disgusting KEY style and other ridiculously uncanny alley creations, but it’s nowhere as unappealing. The 1990s were only just leaving the old style behind.
    And of course, the 00s see a greater emergence of experimental styles of Shinbo and Masaaki Yuasa.

    Generally I feel there is no such decline of anime, only a feeling of nostalgia and pervading disinterest either from people who have watched the cream of previous decades or those who lived through them. Environments change and even the themes and focuses of the most impressive anime change.

    Frankly, in a decade with Ergo Proxy, Eureka Seven, Now and Then Here and There, Noein, Gurren-Lagann, Samurai Champloo, Baccano, Gankutsuou, Last Exile, Akagi, Mushishi, Mononoke, Kemonozume, and other shows just finished, starting or about to air, it’s only getting better for me.

  13. Wyrdwad says:

    I might not be the one to talk, since I enjoy both harem shows AND moe, but I have absolutely no problem with modern anime. Whenever one of my friends starts to talk about there being so many better shows back in the day, I proceed to list several dozen excellent shows from the last 10 years, and that usually shuts ’em up good. ;)

    Anime is neither better nor worse than it used to be. It’s not even all that different, aside from using CG instead of hand-drawn cels. Cartoons have always been a reflection of the culture from which they originate, and Japanese culture has changed over the years. And that’s really the only difference. The quality of shows is just as good as it once was, it’s just now based around a different culture than before. Japan has changed… anime has not.

    -Tom

  14. Patrick says:

    Even if the essential story is still the same in “old anime” and “new anime” the settings they have are vastly different. For example, I love post apocaliptic sci fi animes with lots of blood and violence (in fact i like them more now than 15 years ago), nowadays you it’s very hard to find good shows like that. On the other hand the settings about a bunch of teenagers in high school is everywhere more than ever.

    There is the also the fact that, like in hollywood, even if animes are very good they are hardly original. Maybe it’s not that old anime was better but at least it felt more original. Then it felt like anime was something new that you had never seen before. I remember when I was not even 10 watching dragon ball and captain tsubasa in spanish local tv’s, those felt like something totally different from what I had seen before (not so difficult on the other hand having 8 or 9 years). But even when I was a teenager and was watching Akira or Dominion Tank Police I still felt the same thing. Now even if I find Ghost in the Shell S.A.C or Seirei no Moribito two of the best shows of the last decade I didn’t find them something new, very original or totally different. The last anime that I personally liked and that I felt was new and original was mushishi, because I had never seen something like that. What about you?

    PD: Even I like sometimes some harmless moe-filled anime, but they are hardly “great shows” or original shows either.

  15. Fan seen it all says:

    Anime is no different than feature films produced in U.S. Both are produced by mostly big Studios and some by small ones. Quantity and originality is a product of what the consumer market demands and frequently buys. Unoriginal and bad shows are nothing but some people’s way of cataloguing a flat silly show with flaws. You people may not be the target audience anyway so stop hating them.
    On the other hand anime shows in some cases as the piece of art they are reflect a director’s vision you may partially agree with yet that does not make it flawed or bad.
    When you dont feel like they are releasing shows that reflect your sensibilities then you feel cheated, well guess what you deal with it or stop watching.
    Voicing opinions is great but all you can do is either watch what is out there or go put together your own show and release it. More than likely some people will feel about your show the way you feel about theirs.
    About subject matter in Anime there are but a finite number of stories and genres to cover and then the only thing to set them apart is vision, taste and production values. Again no different from the feature films market or TV/Cable market.
    First times make such a lasting impression on us raising the bar so high that most times new things pale in comparison.
    Dont ask for originality or style ask for unique or personal visions.

  16. Solaris says:

    I really apreciated all of your opinions. Thank you for discussing it.

    So psgels calculations show no substantial decrease in anime quality bur an increase. Ok, maybe i am mistaking, or that phenomenon isn’t that linear. Or maybe Psgels has a measure looser than mine in judging anime’s quality.
    I must have developed some kind of disaffection towards anime. Or my judgemnent has become a bit too elitarist.
    I watched quite some shows, but not as many as you may think. There are many series that i dropped halfway, more cause of interest loss than cause they were really bad.
    But, regarding a lot of series i watched to, i often ended thinking there was something missing to say that was a very good show.
    Sometimes it was the graphics, some other time it was storytelling, some other the chars, again i found inconclusive series (the one i hate the most). It also happened often that anime coming from some other kind of media, such as manga or novels, suffered a great loss in quality in the transition from one media to another. Lately i hardly felt really satified by some series. I can’t deny there are excellent anime nowadays. I never intended to deny it. But i never said i liked absolutely more older generation of anime. I’m not a nostalgic. I hope that is clear.
    The only time i blabbered nostalgic was within Casshern Sins review, when i claimed the older anime was much more better than its remake.

  17. AlexS says:

    Fan: “About subject matter in Anime there are but a finite number of stories and genres to cover and then the only thing to set them apart is vision, taste and production values.”

    I strongly disagree. There are nearly an infinity of subjects, themes and genres that have not been tried in Anime, unless you are defending that there is but one story (setup, challenge, resolution), and all others are variations of it.

    But I think it takes guts to carve a new genre, because the potential return of investment is unclear. Plus, the public is strongly conditioned to acquired tastes. It will be mistrustful of new stuff. In general, you need an above average anime to blaze a new trail for others to follow.

    Nevertheless, as mentioned before the public also changes, and so naturally the offer will also evolve, otherwise the market will shrink and many studios will go out of business. I think most studios understand this and try to explore new avenues, but this is not so easy.

  18. Sacchi says:

    Gainax’s Gurren Lagann was epic, you can’t say it wasn’t an epic anime.

    And it sold. So, good shows also sell.

  19. Wyrdwad says:

    Patrick: I don’t think anime has gotten any less original, I think you’ve just gotten USED to it. Those shows you listed – Dragon Ball, Akira, etc. – aren’t really all that original or unique when compared to older anime from the 1960s and 1970s, and especially when compared to a lot of older manga. They’re only original when compared to shows and comics you and I grew up with. In other words, the only reason you thought of them as good AND original, instead of just good, is really because YOU had never seen anything like them before… but there certainly WERE precedents for all the concepts found in those shows, within the long history of anime and manga that predates them.

    Which isn’t to say there wasn’t anything new and unique… but there’s really just as much new and unique today as there was back in the 80s and 90s. Look at shows like Moyashimon: Tales of Agriculture, or Legend of the Black Heaven, or Sexy Commando Gaiden Sugoiyo! Masaru-San, or Paranoia Agent. Or movies like Tamala 2010: A Punk Cat In Space. Those are all from the 2000s, and they’re FAR more original than Akira, or Dragon Ball, or anything else I can immediately think of from the late 80s and early 90s.

    Heck, even within the harem and romantic comedy genres, there are plenty of original concepts. Midori Days, for example, is unlike any other romantic comedy I’ve ever seen. Ouran High School Host Club, Welcome to the NHK… I could keep on listing recent shows that really don’t feel like any other anime out there.

    I think you’re confusing new and original IN ALL OF ANIME with new and original TO YOU. Because remember, just because you’ve never seen anything like it before doesn’t mean nothing else like it was ever MADE before. To those who have never played an RPG before, a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest game could seem completely new and unique… but that doesn’t mean it IS.

    -Tom

  20. Camario says:

    @Sacchi: I really don’t want to continue the common use of the word “epic” but let’s say it applies. Sure, no problem.

    But how much of Gurren Lagann’s success has to do with its inherent quality and how much has to do with other contributing factors? Gurren Lagann was good although, maybe more importantly for the average viewer, it was also extremely fun.

    And yet I don’t think it would have been as profitable if so much of the show wasn’t trying to be so intentionally fashionable and commercially appealing in the first place.

    If you made the music, character designs and the mecha combat less flashy and less attractive, would it be as successful? Probably not.

    psgels has reviewed lots of shows that, like them or not, probably had better stories and better character development than Gurren Lagann, but they probably won’t sell very well because they aren’t as market-friendly.

    Gainax knows how to make good anime, usually, but they also know how to exploit them as much as humanly possible.

  21. Lifecarrier says:

    I think, as the title implies, that the issue at hand is not whether anime was better in the old days than now, but whether it is evolving or degenerating as an artistic industry.

    The answer to that question is of course subjective, and depends on what you think constitutes good art.

    It’s fair to say that nowadays there are more creative, experimental ideas than there ever was –even if examples of the opposite abound–, but I see a valid reason for posing the question when you notice the recent trends that tend to reward moe-fanservice and other mix of rather unoriginal shows in sales.

    As someone above said, the challenge any self respecting anime studio that wants to produce quality anime (in all aspects conceivable), is doing so while remaining profitable, so they need to find the talent capable of successfully balancing the elements for both purposes.

    Creativity and innovation will undoubtedly get their rewards, as they will always draw attention whenever other types of shows become standard and thus boring.

    Personally, I’m a little pessimistic about there being another GITS:SAC or LOGH in the future, maybe all that’s need is one great series like those to enlighten the masses that currently drift to generic shows.

    Perhaps there could be a combination of market appeal and quality content, which some have said Gainax is good at finding, certainly a good moe show is preferable to a bad one, right? :p

  22. LifeCarrier says:

    @AlexS:

    I agree with pretty much everything you said. I wish more studios would have the guts to try to explore new grounds, cause, as it is often the case, the higher the risk, the higher the reward can be, and so, it is also an opportunity for success and leaping ahead in the industry.

  23. Camario says:

    @Lifecarrier:

    “As someone above said, the challenge any self respecting anime studio that wants to produce quality anime (in all aspects conceivable), is doing so while remaining profitable, so they need to find the talent capable of successfully balancing the elements for both purposes.”

    And, perhaps more importantly, those studios need to allow said talent to work by giving them enough breathing room, which is a risk in and of itself. The balance is going to be affected by many factors and circumstances.

    There’s really a lot that can go wrong, regardless of who is directing or writing a show at any given time.

    You can bring together a team full of people with a certain amount of proven artistic skill and yet they won’t get that balance just right if commercial demands and requirements aren’t met.

    What good is a product that gets some critical recognition but ends up costing more than the profits are able to give back? For the fans it will be a blessing, but for the company it’s going to be a headache if sales targets are not met.

    Or you can let those commercial demands and requirements become the priority, to the point of affecting the work of the team and thus their efforts will not be as creative as they could have been.

    Then again, you could argue that the profits from the more commercial shows allow the more creative ones to exist in the first place, since a failure can be funded by a success. At least in theory, since that much seems to be a problem when there’s not enough money to go around.

  24. windy says:

    Well, I don’t see anime of the 70 s, 80s or 90s as the “Parthenon” in anime culture,there have been indeed many original shows and creative approach in them ,but I don’t think that people should believe that ” anime in the old days were so good and now there’s only crap”, because it isn’t true at all. Some of “the greatest shows ever” came out after 2005 like Code Geass, Simoun , Higurashi, Jigoku shoujo ( that became a myth), Blood +, Saiunkoku monogatari, le chevalier d’Eon and so many others, and don’t forget all the good shows that air in the moment: like ” Guin Saga”, it has been ages since we last had so much extraordinary material in one show or ” Umineko no naku koro ni”, it’s just barely started and it’s already outstanding. I believe that in all times there were bad shows and good ones, but also that there were a bigger amount of bad shows before, we simply didn’t hear about them so much. And besides even the shows from the World Masterpiece Theatre haven’t declined at all : with “Porfy no nagai tabi ” and ” Les miserables”. But what really did get better is the graphism and the character – design that we see in many shows.

  25. Steve says:

    Wow. I have read most of the arguments and yes, while I think that speaking how you feel is the key point here I’d like to point out some issues.

    The conversation that psgels has posted sounded to me like animes with good story, depth, originality, creativity, less moe, less fan services are the ones being rated as great shows, while the opposite are seen as bad ones.

    But where else do you find “moe” or “fanservice” if not other than in animes itself. I dont think you will be allowed to direct movies that has teengers panty shots or other sorts. I dont think they should be seen has bad shows, or shows that are hardly worth the time.

    It may be true that the adults would prefer deeper, better story-telling animes but i think that there are still a lot of people who actually really love the fanservice and “moe” shows.

    Lets not forget that anime has a huge market out there and manga artists need to earn the money after all, some more so than the others so i think its bad to assume that bad artists = produce shallow , loads of fanservice animes.

    I enjoy all the genres of anime. Sometimes i prefer the shallow ones because you dont need to pay so much attention to every dialogue that each character is saying.

    And to answer psgels question, i dont think we can expect anime to stay the same as it was. like lets say 70s or 80s or 90s. It may be true that there are more harems, adaptations but i think there are still at least 5 good ( in this case the deeper, better story telling more character studies ) every year so i am completely happy with the way anime is right now :)

  26. Patrick says:

    @Wyrdwad
    You may be right, but to it does not make my arguments invalid, it even reinforces them. What I mean is that the american and european public in the 80’s and 90’s (that’s us people) found anime something very original that they never had seen before. Now anime is rarely something original that we have never seen before it’s everywhere and lately japanese studios take into account western market sales when making anime. And that is one of the reasons why people think anime “old anime” was better, because when western public started getting into anime it was truly something that we had never seen before. Now I laugh every time I remember captain tsubasa (those jumps and those imposibly long stadiums were ridiculous), but then, to everyone, even western adult public that was something new and different, because they never had seen any anime before (except maybe heidi and harlock). With my post earlier I was just trying to explain that.

    But I think that is only normal, the more you watch movies, watch tv series, read books, read manga and comic, watch anime. You start getting how the stories are made and what happens after such scenes, with time it gets more difficult to be surprised. I think the conclusion is self explanatory, you start thinking “back then things were better” when in truth you should be thinking “back then things felt more surprising to me”. But that applies to EVERYTHING, not only to anime, it’s life.

  27. reverse says:

    their are hardly any original anime today and back then. every show basically is another show rip off, this happen in every entertainment industry. it just the way the story being told is what make it “original” ( to me atleast ) .it not about originally of the anime. no need to compare that anymore

    one thing I dislike in today anime is their shell out their best story/animation etc… in the first couple episode.( you basically “doom” if make otherwise ) back then this wasn’t the case. least amount competition back is one factor.

  28. elianthos says:

    I mostly agree with comment #10 and # 19.
    Today we have access to a lot more anime series than in the past, thanks to the web. But you can get lost in it, with dozen of titles per season. Soo, either you trust some blogger with sitably similar tastes to bring the number of potentially interesting series down, and/or you trust your own first impressions (and prejudices), hoping you won’t miss the mark and waste hour of your time while some anime gems fly under your radar XD.
    In terms of quantity vs quality I can’t say today it’s better than it used to be in the past, even if I’ve been watching anime since 1980.
    There are so many old series we could watch on TV in my country, but since the advent of WWW I discovered I missed so many series from that era.
    The ones I remembers fondly and to me stood the test of time are very few, but those few are ‘objectively’ really good, ranging from a groundbreaking history/romance series like Rose of Versailles to SD Greek mythology on crack (Pollon *__*. Adorable chara design and sexy jokes/attires – plus a mysterious light-coloured powder bestowing happiness (aka it made people high :p ), and Cupid with his oh-so-phallic bellybutton XD – that managed to amuse the adults while flying over the head of the kiddies :D Nadia:Secret of Blue Water, it got adventure, action, a dash of romance, sci-fi, betrayal and redemption , without the depression trip and self-indulgence of Eva). These are the three series on top of my head that I liked back, I’d rewatch any day and I’d suggest to others. For the other oldies ones but Ghibli and the WM series (Anne, Heidi, Remi & Co.) I’d say nostalgia factor is their main advantage. But who knows how many good old series are there among the ones I haven’t watched? ;)
    In the end what really matters is that there is something from everyone in every decade, and that there’s always something good and well made (be it concept or exsecution, or both) . To sum it up: nowadays there might be more ‘good’ anime than in the past, but what I wish and believe is that good ideas can always be found. Surely recent animes are easier to find , and that technology and digital means help making them sleeker and prettier

  29. elianthos says:

    (continuing from previous comment. Sorry I realized some words in between have disappeared somehow from said above comment too)…help making them sleeker and prettier in a way, you could argue that limited resorces compelled anime studios to make up for tight budget with plot and characters and creativity. But aren’t anime studios on a tight budget nowaday too?
    Really, IMO you can’t say that today anime is dying: it has evolved in look and style, but I consider it different, not better all around than anime of the past, and viceversa. Of course some old series could have benefitted from better technology, but hey, the old school look has it charms and aesthetics are only a tiny portion of enjoyment , as much as I understand it culd prevent some poeple to approach old anime at ll. It’s just harder not to miss the good series as soon as they’re out ;).

  30. Wyrdwad says:

    Patrick: I think if someone who had NEVER SEEN ANIME BEFORE were to start with some random action show from the modern era, though (let’s say Paranoia Agent, or Hell Girl), they’d be just as impressed, and consider the show just as unique and interesting (if not more so!), as someone who started with Dragon Ball or Akira. Again, that’s MY point here… the quality and even the uniqueness and freshness of shows has not gone down at all, anime’s just become more “mainstream” outside of Japan, so there are fewer people you know who are seeing it for the very first time.

    It’s purely 100% cultural. The actual contents of the show are no worse or more unoriginal than they ever have been, and are arguably MORE diverse and unique – you, and the rest of the English-speaking world, just have a lot more to compare it to now.

    -Tom

  31. windy says:

    to 28: Yes, ” Versailles no bara ” stands as a “legend ” among all manga ever created, it’s also the best work, or masterpiece of Ryoko Ikeda, this one, no one can surpass in terms of historical background, characters’ feelings towards each other and the characters themselves, facing their tragical fate while remaining true to themselves and to their principles.
    “Oniisama ee” is also one of those exceptionnally emotional and beautiful shows that will pass through all generations and without getting tarnished. To Wyrdwad: I completely agree with your assertation: that anime didn’t go down but got even better.

  32. Chris says:

    Wow, there are a lot of good points going on in this discussion. As a former member of a fansub group many, many years ago I agree with the premise that for the most part only high quality shows were fan-subbed, the equipment and source material was so expensive that we only bothered with top quality shows, I still have one of my professional level mastering VCRs (over $1600) and high end Laserdisc player (over $1000). Also the group basically had to work together in-person because swapping copies of the project via the Internet was impossible at the time, so only the best and most popular stuff was subbed.

    I also agree with the comment that there are way too many shitty niche genre shows (moe, harem, fan-service, and many others)because the powers-that-be have decided that it’s easier to make a niche anime and sell xxxx number of DVDs to the otaku who love that genre than to try and make a anime that would reach a large TV general audience and get paid making a popular TV show.

    I think that sometimes some of us older more experienced anime fans can come off arrogant and condescending to the younger generation of fans when we really don’t mean to, it’s a matter of experience vs the exuberance of a fairly new fan of anime. I had a friend from back in my fansub/anime club days that at one time owned over 13,000 anime VHS-LDs-DVDs so his grasp of anime genre history and overall anime knowledge could come off as arrogance.

  33. Kalandra says:

    If I may interrupt, let look at this from a different point of view.

    The crisis of economic stagnation and population issue hit Japan hard even before the 2008 meltdown in USA. Literally, Japan is running out of kids if the population did not reverse the demographic pattern soon ( 1.07: 1 ratio birth versus death, ideally should be 2:1 ratio).

    Moe shows trend started when more and more 30-40s age otaku category who can’t seem to grow up began to buy into the moe trend which it is hard to miss by the studios. Simply, there is not enough kids for studios to make more children orientated anime profitably. The industry now hinges on aging otaku population to survive and these guys were mostly unmarried or unable to connect to people in normal manner due to social dysfunction in Japan. Not helping when more and more Japanese females were not interested to marry.

  34. AlexS says:

    @33: Well, I have the impression that an aging population would rather favor the development of more mature genres, which I guess is happening.

    Your point on moe is interesting. So far I thought it appealed to young children and teenagers (hello kitty type of attraction), but perhaps this also extends to an older audience (specially when you mix moe with fan service and lolicon tendencies). Anyways, my dislike of moe probably prevents me from understanding the psychology of those that like it.

    However, from an egoistical point of view, this evolution is fine for me. I’m not getting any younger, so I’m all for more shows targeted to older people (the mature variant, not the moe one).

    As for the otaku share of the market, I would be curious to know to how much it amounts. Any idea? I mean, if more than 20% of sales do not concern casual viewers but is the product of otaku’s purchases, it’s obvious this is going to firmly orient the market.

  35. Patrick says:

    @Wyrdwad
    Ok, I had not fully understood your point before. At this point I just think it’s a matter of opinion, maybe you are right and I’m wrong. But my personal subjective impression is that nowadays western media have taken what they liked from manga, anime and japanese videogames. So people are “less surprised” with anime because part of it is already “somewhere else”.

    Still I want to point out that I’m not in the category of the people that thinks anime of old was better. I just trying to explain, from my personal experience, what I think is the reason people think like that.

  36. Solaris says:

    Id like to add some notes as i noticed some interesting opinions. I’m too lazy to quote people so i’ll just tell the topic.

    #1) Originality
    #2) Plot vs Graphics
    #3) Fanservice and moe

    #1) Some people pointed out originality is quite a subjective matter, as you find original that show you watched for the first time and you grew up with that as a reference. People watching Dragon Ball for the first time may think it’s an original show, not accounting the fact there were other shows before of the same king, better o worse done than it. But they have DB in mind and will judge any other show based on DB without thinking in advance if their reference was good enough. That is quite a common mistake, and even very skilled people may fall for it.
    Psgels also did the same mistake a couple of times. He watched Slayers new serie or Casshern Sins without knowing nothing about their predecessors, and having watched old slayers judget it with the respect of the new one. Big mistake: it’s pointless to analyze an original wit his own remake!
    The solution to the problem is to analyze our own reference sample first and place them in the right context.
    With the espect to the DB example. If i just watched the it for the first time, maybe it could be a nice exercise to go to the internet and google for some info about it. One may discover many other shows like that and may also find it being not so original in the first place.

    continues

  37. Solaris says:

    #2 The importance of the container
    Second remark. I agree that back in the old decades there were both good and bad shows, but what do you mean for bad? I urge to let you notice that you’d better not base that judgement on the graphic quality of older shows. Graphics has evolved a lot and it’s really gorgeous nowadays. I bet we will find it really out dated in 10 years from now, as much as we find 10 years old show’s graphics outdated by now.
    So if you were to judge old masterpieces such as Tiger Mask or Atom (just to name two of those examples) bad cause their graphics looks so bad nowadays, you’d making a terrible mistake.
    I think nowadays audience is spoiled about graphics. I read comments in other forums and blogs claiming some shows were so bad just because their animation or chara wasn’t good enough.
    Graphics is just a contaier. But the contenent is more important than the container. If you’re just fooled by not so good graphics you’d miss some very good stories.
    Well i also made the mistake of dropping a serie whose graphics i didn’t like at all, knowing its story was much batter than what appeared on screen. It was Gunslinger 2, but there were some reasons! ;)

  38. Patrick says:

    Yes, the originality of something is very subjective and that is my main point. If someone has read/knows about the platonic fable of the cave and has seen the Ghost in the Shell movie, the film “The Matrix” is totally unoriginal (in almost all of its aspects), but most people watching the movie didn’t know either so to them it felt original. But the thing is manga, anime, japanese videogames are now part of mainstream media and people who come in contact with them for the first time have already seen at least some of its aspects somewhere else.

  39. Solaris says:

    # fanservice
    Someone said it looks like fanservice, moe and harem are negative. It’s not really that. They could be positive, but it’s a triky device. It may ruin a show if not used properly.
    Fanservice are thos plot device that are unrelated to the plot but are used to captivate the audience. Most common fanservice is sexual related, but there are other kind as well. Moe is another kind of fanservice as well. Harem used sexual fanservice a lot as the basics of that format is a show featuring a bunch of gorgeous ladies fighting for the main char’s male. Fanservice should be used to enrich the basic plot or chars, but smust’n become a substitute for those elements. Fanservice is often used as a cover up for a weak plot too often nowadays. This is the wrong use that gave fansarvice a bad name.

  40. * w * says:

    imho, the rose-tinted nostalgia came from watching those shows while being a kid. i was 6 when i first saw akazukin cha cha, el hazard and bakuretsu hunters, and i believed they were beyond awesome. now, i couldn’t even stomach 5 minutes of any of those shows.

    this is prolly the main reason why i love g gundam and gundam wing above all other gundam series. although, i’ve never seen them again after their reruns in 1999.

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Anonymous60656
Looks really nice. some lighting variation to create a sense of depth and atmosphere would be nice @Friend. It looks quite flat for some reason even though you have four layers to play with
Ikhta
@Kaiser Eoghan Yeah I think the same too. Hopefully. Thanks Kaiser
Friend
Here is what it will more or less look like by the end (https://i.imgur.com/hnB8lpd.png) I'm going to render the rest and add more atmosphere with some wisps of light. Let me know which one you prefer! If I'm not happy with it by the end I might even just scrap it, I don't want to force a design for the site :D
afgm
heard*
afgm
Unfortunately, I have heared that Amanchu is actually propaganda from an alien species set on annihilating civilization through cultural and religious dominance
Kaiser Eoghan
@Ikhta: You can relax on that front and breathe easy, Amanchu is basically simple, cute slice of life quasi-sports comedy that kind of gets more moe-ish later on.
Ikhta
Oops sorry. After I send a msg, I can see my previous msgs. Sorry about that. Weird, why is the chat box like this o_o
Ikhta
I just reloaded the page my msgs are gone. Wth is wrong with this website? Why was msg deleted?
Ikhta
Does anyone know?
Ikhta
Hi can anyone tell me is Amanchu illuminati or not? I'm a christian. I don't want to be watching it if its demonic,anti christ or illuminati.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: I'm syked for baldr sky and that other apparently fucked up one thats getting translated soon we talked about with ninja.
Kaiser Eoghan
...damn you shoutbox...auto-hyphening me as you do...
Kaiser Eoghan
Ah, how things change, at 19? I think I was at the time I remember un-ironically thinking school days ending/second half was clever/different/subversive. Now I find it idiotic, silly and manipulative regarding the protag being a cheap attempt to get the audiences hate.
Kaiser Eoghan
Some don't seem to like the second season of EF as much as the first, just putting that out there. I remember its visual style being a selling point and shaft at their A-game stylistically. Wish I'd watched it dubbed though, the eyepatch girls voice was irritating as all hell in Japanese.
AidanAK47
EF is alright. I can promise it's not another school days.
Anonymous59512
Bleh 91days running behind schedule and had to run a recap episode. Doesn't bode well.
Anonymous59460
Do you recommend that I watch EF? I don't want another School Days.
AidanAK47
Yep. They are making it out that shes a relative of Luvia.
Masky
I mean, I didn't even realize she was supposed to be a Finn before you said that, I didn't caught on that when anime called Miyu "transfer student from Finland", its because Luvia sort of adopted her into Edelfelt family or something?(iirc)
Masky
Anyway, so regardless of subjective experiences, does anyone have a clue why Luvia Edelfelt is a Finn anyway? .-. I'd have thought she is anime British... Is there actual reason besides "let's pick random European country"?
Masky
Yeah I wouldn't mind message deletion on those ones
AidanAK47
If you want I can delete those messages. Anyway this chatbox refreshes every two minutes so you might need to refresh the page to see new posts.
Masky
I mean, like, you pointed out that I was talking about superficial stuff right before I point out that I was referring to superficial stuff :'D So yeah, blergh, wasted time writing that
Masky
Also ah dang it, you posted something right before I posted it so you just ninja'd me .-.
Masky
Meant to write "(so countries that aren't England, German, France-)" xD
Masky
Oops typo there
Masky
Well yeah, I haven't checked how many times each of different European countries are mentioned in variety of Japanese media, all I said was that out of lesser known countries(England, German, France, Spain, etc) I have seen Finland referred most and that weirds me out xD
AidanAK47
Anyway I get what you mean but I feel you just focus too much on drawing connections on a superficial level. If you simplify something down you can draw connections between anything but it's the details that make all the difference.
AidanAK47
@Masky, But whats the point of making a statement if that statement isn't true or at least holds ground? Generalized statmements are annoying because they are often said in ignorance because the one making the statement hasn't bothered to verify it and is basing it entirely on an unreliable and selective memory.
Anonymous58340
Things that are generally true tend to be true generally
Masky
This is why generalized statements are annoying, because someone always take them too seriously and nitpicks "but it doesn't happen that often" or "when you say always it isn't always" xD
Masky
I dunno why I bother sometimes, since its not like you want to understand what I mean anyway : D
Masky
@Aidan: Bah, meanie~
afgm
the technology isn't super refined yet, but it definitely has the potential to make drawn animation obselete
afgm
The setting is especially enriched by the CGI
afgm
Berserk is amaaaziiing! Oh my god! The animation is so detailed, movement wise! You can't get that with drawings.
afgm
@SuperMario: lol yeah
AidanAK47
@Mario, That sucks. Though I often find realistionships too troublesome to bother with.
AidanAK47
@Masky, no you often don't. You tend to make random generalized statements. Hence why I assumed this was also a generalisation based on small cases. And it still is.
SuperMario
But Flowers of Evil is a great series, I agree
SuperMario
@afgm: you talking 'bout the anime, right? Because the events after the anime are when sh!ts just got real.
afgm
It's one of my favorite series
afgm
@SuperMario: Flowers of Evil is anti-romance, but it is a celebration of love apart from it. Nothing makes me more hopeful than to watch a protagonist recover from a prolonged and debilitating manic episode.
Masky
So I guess technically she does have Finnish name even though it doesn't really sound like it to my ears...
Masky
Just to note Luvia is tiny municipiality here, never heard of it before though. Edelfelt sounds like it has Swedish origin, but it is name that is name of apparently somewhat famous Finnish painter. I haven't heard of that guy, but I don't really know many Finnish painters because I'm not into art history.
Masky
Joking aside, like I said, Finland is mostly mentioned in otaku pandering material for some bizarre reason. For example, I once saw review of game that is about stripping vampires(not hentai game, can't remember name though) and I noticed it had one random Finnish character who actually did have Finnish name.
Masky
@Aidan: Hah, take that for being arrogant "its on your head" : D I know what I'm talking about most of the time
SuperMario
But isn't it fitting that the anime/manga I'm currently following is Flowers of Evil, a pretty much anti-romance manga. Well, might as well write a reflection on the manga if I feel up to it :)
SuperMario
@Kaiser: I wish I were joking, but it's okay. I don't want to bring the atmostphere of the shoutbox down by my personal affairs.
@afgm: thanks man. Well I'm just keep moving on, no use thinking back too much on that.
Kaiser Eoghan
Oh. whoa whoa, I thought Mario was taking the piss/joking with that post...thought wrong.
afgm
@SuperMario: That sucks man. How are you holding up? I know long distance relationships can be hard to maintain -- it gets pretty lonely.
Kaiser Eoghan
Really glad to see that Vinland saga has gotten properly good again, it was starting to get back on track slowly but surely, now it, with this new chapters revelation fully has,
Kaiser Eoghan
Ireland was mentioned in Nabari no ou and an episode of original gundam, two of gundam 00s characters are Irish.
Kaiser Eoghan
I don't like generalized statements, much prefer Colonelized ones actually.
Kaiser Eoghan
There was a dating sim adaptation by studio deen in 2003 that did a girl of the week format, one of the girls was finnish.
SuperMario
Just broke up with my girl after 3 years. Figure that it never works out for a long-term relationship... (That's a generalized statement right there)
AidanAK47
So that's one. Can't say I remember seeing Finland elsewhere besides that show where all the countries are turned into anime characters.
AidanAK47
Luvia Edelfelt is from Finland?! Well damn you learn something new every day.
AidanAK47
And now I find a screenshot of them saying Miyu is from Finland. Which is weird because nothing of the sort was mentioned in the manga.
AidanAK47
Most I seen was anime characters saying Norway which was generally used as a means of saying NO WAY.
AidanAK47
@Anon48363, its sad that when I see a comment like this my first reaction is suspecting its a Bot. Thanks though.
@Masky, nope. No they didn't. I think this may be in your head.
Anonymous48363
Been enjoying the site for 7-8 years, if not longer. Thank you for your efforts in keeping the editorial line intact wrt reviews and happy to discover new content in the process. Keep up the good work!
Masky
Anyway, speaks of your "high taste" I guess. Finland gets brought up in some of otaku fanservice material for some bizarre reason. I'm weirded out by that since Finland is most obscure backwater place I've seen mentioned most out of other obscure countries xD
Masky
Of course it is possible I'm remembering wrong too(and did read wrong) and they did mention it only once :P
Masky
How funny you say that and then mention that weird magical girl spinoff right after wards xD The part where they introduce Miyu to rest of class has teacher saying she is transfer student from Finland, unless I read subtitles wrong
AidanAK47
Gonna wait on the Prisma Illya episode post. Figure I cover two episodes in one considering the slow pace isn't giving me much to work with.
Got to say I thought this would give me much more to talk about.
AidanAK47
I don't remember Finland ever being brought up in anime. Or video games. Or anything for that matter.
Speaking of the preview I have at least checked the source material. Just need to buckle down and start writing it.
Masky
@Bam: I know right? :D
Bam
I agree with K-off regarding keep the business end of stuff off the shoutbox- I just have no means of communicating with all of ya'll. We can Skype, but I suggest Google hangouts for conferencing. That way we may be able to record special podcasts, and now's probably a good time to get this to the next level.
Bam
I also volunteer to help with the workload for the season preview. I would be down to cover two series, but they have to appeal to me, cause there's no way I can be fair and PG-13 with the reviews of aweful shows.
Bam
@Masky: "Generalized statements are in general rather annoying". Hehe, that awefully sounds woefully like a generalized statement to me m8.
Bam
First Dark Souls III DLC titled Ashes of Ariandel just confirmed for an Oct 25th release. Thankfully this time, all regions and platforms are getting the expnasion on the same day. Here is a reveal trailer to launch the Hype Zeppelin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu1NCPMC7D0
Bam
Friend: please send me, or post, the finished banner once you have it complete. I would like to take a gander. Thank you.
Masky
...Espicially since characters supposedly from there rarely have names that sound Finnish.
Masky
So anyhoo, so why is Finland one of countries that tends to get name dropped a lot in anime/manga/japanese video games? As Finnish person that weirds me out
K-Off
@Friend Damn, kind of surprised to see how abstract some of those concept art are for Mulan. But generalizations are just easier to make if all they care about is validation.
Masky
Generalized statements are in general rather annoying, but everyone loves to make them anyway for some reason :D
Friend
I'm nearing completion with our banner, in terms of work-hours Id say 3 hours? But in real life that equates to about 4 days because of stuff.
Friend
Something that annoys me: when a fellow artist makes a generalized statement about the industry by saying something silly like "japanese animated films have more creative input involved." Uggh Google "Alex Nino Mulan Concept" and tell me if you still think that. Sorry about that X/
SuperMario
And it might sound weird to you guys, especially majority of you are in one of the hottest days of summer, but I'm gonna head off to snow mountain for skiing this coming weekend. So expect the weekly posts will be a bit later than usual.
SuperMario
I don't know if that guy @Bond is still lurking around here, but I'm still interested In doing that thing with him
SuperMario
@Aidan: imho, those numbers don't really mean if we have nothing to compare them to. I'll say the ratio between original/ all anime for particular seasons would tell us a lot better
AidanAK47
But it does counter the point of "We don't get enough original anime anymore" which in itself was a pretty silly statement.
AidanAK47
Of course just because they are original doesn't automatically qualify them as good.
AidanAK47
@Anon44887, that logic would apply if it was an exception. 9 original shows last season, 14 original shows this season. 20 in the next. Are they three seasons all an exception?
Anonymous44887
@AidanAK47: An exception that proves the rule
Vonter
Just to ask does any of the shows being reviewed have a great soundtrack. Just asking for asking.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: I recall he posted under the name Bold/bond, the same poster who made the chart.
AidanAK47
Who was it again bemoaning that we don't get enough original(Not adaption) anime anymore? Cause there are 20 original shows next season. Great for anime but hard for me cause what am I gonna write in the preview?
AidanAK47
I am a bit too stubborn to burnout.
@afgm, I didn't change a thing.
Anonymous38539
I hope AidanAK47 would not suffer an Anime Burnout. I love this site and it pains to think that one day, no one will be writing the seasonal previews and yearly summary.
SuperMario
@Aidan: you have 91 days's episode as 9 instead of 7
AidanAK47
Bloody hell, even the spambots are referencing Pokemon Go now.
K-Off
For future reference, let's direct admin dialogue to email, apart from direct feedback.
@Mario We're working on allowing users to set up accounts.
SuperMario
And the constant anonymous names just keep bugging me. Can we make it back to the old shoutbox, where you have to put down your name in order to write message?
SuperMario
I think it's one thing leads to another. he's getting too burnout that he doesn't know what to write anymore.
AidanAK47
@Anon36049, pretty much what he said. Though it seems to be a combination of anime burnout and writers block.
Anonymous36271
He suffered from anime burnout and is getting on with real life.
Anonymous36049
Hi guys I havent been around for a long time. Does anyone know what happened to psgels? I see that the new posts are not his.
AidanAK47
Disgaea 2 coming to steam. Sweet.
Gotta finish Disgaea 1 and hope they don't screw up the port on release day again.
AidanAK47
Illuminati are everywhere, regardless of wherther it's anime or not. Sword Art Online was the work of the illuminati. All in the name of the gaint magic eyeball triange god do they rule the landscape of entertainment medium.
Also Magic Eyeball-kun also argees that Rem is best girl. And none shall dare denounce that claim.
SuperMario
@Anony35181: never thought they're that much interested in anime thou
Anonymous35181
@supermario, illuminati confirmed
SuperMario
Is it just me or couple of messages from the shoutbox just gone missing?
Topgavin
Haven't been watching it myself, but apparently in Taboo Tattoo, that large-chested high school girl died while running *onto a live battlefield* to check on her boyfriend with a shirt that said "flag". 10/10
K-Off
@afgm Sent you a message.
@Friend Looks good, I'd be interested in seeing multiple witches as well.
Anonymous32745
Chemotherapy is a cause of cancer rather than a cure.
Anonymous32745
If you know someone dying of cancer, immediately inform them that allopathic medicine will kill them and turn them to natural remedies which often work.
Anonymous32745
"Medicine and science are powerfully institutionalized, but no institution or profession has existed for the purpose of encouraging people to act reasonably." - Ray Peat
afgm
.
afgm
@Friend: yeah it's a problem
@Koff: I emailed you a while back. did you get it?
Fri3nd
Huh, I can't use my username.
@Bam You're right, I'll work on it.
Bam
@K-off: It's moments like these that really remind you of mortality. People pull thru tho. medical science has come far in that field; but definitely not far enough.
Bam
@Friend: It's looks pretty good. I like Mario's suggestion of a series of witches, but a solitary one is more in-tune with the current banner. I would say however that there is too much dark in the negative space to the right. Could be just me tho.
Bam
@Kaiser: a series of consecutive 'yes'. I was really into Laloux, but FP is the one I liked the most. I've been watching Mr. Robot since season 1, and it's well worth your time. Not really all that cyberpunkish tho; mostly just cyber. And anybody who hasn't read Gibson's masterpiece is a fool of a Took.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Bam: Have you been looking into that Mr Robot series? I heard its meant to be some kind of cyber thriller, it could be our thing. Also have you read Neuromancer?
Kaiser Eoghan
And I suppose that brings me to that stranger things show then, I love horror so I guess that caught my eye, but apparently its a family/kids thing =< don't know whether to bother.
Kaiser Eoghan
I still say it takes me that extra bit of convincing to watch a childrens animated film.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Friend: The banner is in good hands I see.
AidanAK47
Well Coraline wasn't written by Laika. It was written by Neil Gaiman. Laika just adapted it. Still I would like to check out Kubo to see what all the hype is about.
SuperMario
@anony29442: I will watch Kubo this coming week so I will comment on the movie then. But I'm not that surprise if Kubo has a weak writing. Laika never really great at story development: I mean Coraline is exellent, ParaNorman is just okay and Boxstrolls writing is just so underdeveloped and full of plotholes
SuperMario
@friend: wow. It looks awesome. But why only one witch? ^^
Friend
Hey everyone! Just an update on our new banner, here's my WIP up to now: [link src="https://i.imgur.com/0QSv6IK.png
I'm"] trying a witch as a tribute to one of psgel's favorite anime maho shojotai. Feedback is welcome, I have a lot left to do. A 5:1 aspect ratio is the weirdest dimension I've ever painted in
Anonymous29442
I just saw Kubo and the 2 strings and im really shocked at all the praise its receiving. People calling it an instant masterpiece on looks alone but not enough are talking about how underdeveloped the characters and story were. It felt as if they made the whole thing up as they went along to the point where I couldnt suspend my disbelief any longer and got irritated.
Anonymous29415
qualidea code's characters havent become better in terms of how they are written; only that they have been fleshed out in the most generic and trivial of ways as to sympathize with them; and sure, they have become some what likeable in the same way you'd like a person who you heard nothing but kind things about but that does not save the characters from being boring. QC is still a bad show
AidanAK47
@Anon27511, even if the animation was kept consistent the story still can't really escape the done to death aspect of it's story. I agree that the writing has gotten better but despite that the show just feels...meh.
Anonymous27511
Fucking Qualidea Code, as the story and characters become more interesting, the animation and drawing proportionately decreases. Sad they simply do not have the budget to pull off what seems like a potentially very good story
K-Off
@Mike I'm sure you already heard but for some reason I didn't keep up to date. I thought it was strange that releases stopped in March after chapter 68,.
K-Off
Just learned that the writer of my favorite webtoon is battling terminal cancer, but despite it she hopes to finish it someday. God damn I would've never expected this.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: Once spilled hot microwaved food over my hand by mistake, hurt for a day.
Kaiser Eoghan
*remaining
Kaiser Eoghan
@Bam: The story and ideas however were better in gandahar I felt. Time masters while good was a bit stop and start in its pace and animation.
I’m definitely interested in Laloux’s other, short animations and Mobius’ comic book work.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Bam: I watched Rene Laloux's remain animated films, Gandahar and time masters, I enjoyed both but not as much as Fantastic planet. I remember we talked about fantastic planet two years ago. Did you see the other two I mentioned. I liked the big moments and the ending to time masters, especially those angel things.
Anonymous27024
Ok. I beat Federation Force. I think the main positive is that the levels were playable despite the lack of voice chat. The bosses took a lot of damage and the beginning and end are relevant to the Prime continuity.
SuperMario
@K-Off: I did it once just like you did, and once when I put a metal bowl into a microwave. So yeah, boys will always be boys.
Bam
I tried my best not to half-ass either of them tho. Any oddity you guys see just write it off as mental exhaustion.
Bam
Okay, I'm officially beat. These two reviews should be considered companion pieces, as some material from one flew into the other. Thank god that episode 08 was not a heavy one, or I'd be completely depleted.
K-Off
Shit, I'm a damn idiot at baking, slightly burnt my hand a minute ago grabbing a hot tray with a wet towl. Why do I even try.
K-Off
@afgm Alright, send me a message at fightthepowwa@gmail.com and we'll work it out.
Bam
*cinematography
Bam
@K-off: I second that, as although the Poirot series has very well-done choreography, casting and music, there is still a little more of that unquantifiable magic sprinkled on the Granada series. But keep watching and I'll guarantee that Suchet will become the quintessential Poirot in your mind as well.
K-Off
I said that while I liked the performance and the direction, I didn't think that it did for Poirot what Granada did for Holmes.
K-Off
@Bam Yeah it is, and generally when I camp I like to stay for 1-2 weeks, places like Niagara or Yellowstone I can pretty much see everything I want to see in a few days so I don't find much value going to those places. The Adirons on the other hand is diverse as hell.
Bam
@K-off: I'm not sure if you mentioned it while I was gone: but did you get to watch any of the Poirot series with David Suchet? And if so, what are your thoughts?
Bam
I generally go to either the Muir Woods north of SF, or the forests around Big Sur. It doesn't take much to please me really.
Bam
@K-ff: is that by Lake Champlain? Cuz I've been there once and loved it.
Bam
@K-off: I thought of a combined post, but my OCD wouldn't allow a skip in the episodic order of the reviews.
K-Off
Usually when you go camping in Yellowstone or Yosemite the tourist industry kills those places, like I'd be on a rowboat and see cars, cabins, and people from a long ways offshore. The Adirondacks are nice because their building codes mandate construction to be hidden behind trees.
K-Off
@Bam My favorite camping spot is the Adirondacks in upstate NY, I went there probably 4-7 times and never get tired of the place. No, I don't have any posts for now, but for future reference consider combining episodic reviews when you get behind. I.E. Episode 6-8 Review
Total users: 32

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