Posted by psgels on 11 July 2009 with categories: Shoutbox Topics

Okay, so the discussion has been going on in a number of posts and shoutboxes, but the subject is interesting so I decided to make one post about it. Blogsome unfortunately doesn’t support the option to move comments, so I’ll instead quote what the different people have said about it. It first appeared in the shoutbox. Unfortunately the shoutbox stores everything in reverse order and the beginning of the discussion has already been eaten, but I’m too lazy to fix it.

Tracer: overlooked.
8 Jul 09, 22:33
Tracer: Also, PaTRiX’s point on not knowing a lot of the animes from the 80s and 90s is very true. Back then, fansubbing wasn’t as easy as prominent as it is now so the bad shows weren’t subbed and they were
8 Jul 09, 22:28
Tracer: Though regardless, like tealovertoma said, regardless of the low sales, someone will always make some creative and original series.
8 Jul 09, 22:27
Tracer: I’m not trying to say that all good anime sell well (for example, every anime by Yuasa is a failure in terms of DVD sales) but a lot more are successful than what people might think.
8 Jul 09, 22:25
Tracer: Baccano! sold on average about 2000 units per volume (decent numbers). Terra e was selling around 10k per volume. GiTS: SAC was selling near the 20k range. Mononoke was also about 8k-10k per volume.
8 Jul 09, 22:23
Tracer: I don’t think we have to worry about there being less innovative anime because they don’t sell. Believe it or not, some good anime actually sell quite a bit.
8 Jul 09, 21:13
PaTRiX: The thing about the ratio is probably true, but in the late 80’s and the 90’s we didn’t know about the crappy anime. So that makes it feel like there was more good anime.
8 Jul 09, 21:11
PaTRiX: and the animation style. That’s the main “problem” people complaining about “new anime” have even if they don’t even know it themselves. But the same is true form almost anything.
8 Jul 09, 21:11
tealovertoma: There will always be a market for creative and original ideas. Be it in anime, tv shows, movies or music. It’s not like it’ll die out, and I agree with Tracer, the ratio is higher. Great list btw.
8 Jul 09, 21:10
PaTRiX: But I’m going to repeat this, if you have watched anime for 10 – 20 years you have seen allmost all the stories that could possibly happen. The only thing that changes is how they are told …
8 Jul 09, 21:07
PaTRiX: And what people like reverse probably want to say is that some over the top 80’s or 90’s anime is still better than some generic harem anime. It’s a matter of taste probably, but I’m with them.
8 Jul 09, 21:04
PaTRiX: The last thing reverse said is true, the different and more interesting things sell less. So they are produced in lower quantity because they are harder to produce than say a generic harem anime.
8 Jul 09, 20:47
reverse: those innovative idea don’t sell well . so it not surprise, we will see less of them
8 Jul 09, 20:29
reverse: who you referring to tracer. yes we got innovative anime every year, i only disappointed that the anime consumer
8 Jul 09, 20:22
Tracer: It’s not like the ratio of good-to-bad shows is any less lower than befre.
8 Jul 09, 20:21
Tracer: We still get some very interesting and innovative anime every year like Kaiba, Kino’s Journey, Terra e, Nodame Cantabile, Samurai Champloo, GiTS: SAC, Dennou Coil, Baccano!, Mononoke, Gankutsuou etc.
8 Jul 09, 20:16
Tracer: I really don’t see some drop in quality in recent anime. It’s just that instead of the over the top anime of the 80’s and 90s, now it’s a lot of “moe” shows.
8 Jul 09, 20:14
Tracer: For every anime like LoGH, Rose of Versailles, Akira, Touch, you had some equally ****ty fanservice show or some horribly cliche super robot crap.
8 Jul 09, 20:08
Tracer: You’re simply being ignorant if you think the “good, old times” were full with masterpieces or some other ridiculous nonsense.
8 Jul 09, 19:15
tealovertoma: …companies. We still get the character development that old shows focus on, but more experimentation. But yes, there’s also a lot of bad shows.
8 Jul 09, 19:14
tealovertoma: … about old anime better than new anime; we’ve had loads of masterpieces in the past decade. Moreso than any decade before as far as I’m concerned. Plenty of creativity and freedom for production…
8 Jul 09, 19:13
tealovertoma: It sounds like you’ve just been disappointed by 2 (maybe a few more?) anime that seemed promising. Is that all? Cause we get several masterpieces every year. In that case you’re not really talking…
8 Jul 09, 19:11
Howling-kun: Hm, I gotta disagree with you reverse. Specially shows directed by Shinbo Akiyuki tend to have very weak first episodes.
8 Jul 09, 18:58
reverse: Howling-kun every anime nowadays have awesome first episode ( xamdd, eden ) just name it, the problem is their don’t deliver. anyway i will check Bakemonogatari
8 Jul 09, 18:44
PaTRiX: This happens with every kind of hobby you could have, the fact is that people complaining are probably people who have seen too much anime.
8 Jul 09, 18:42
PaTRiX: It’s not that anime nowadays is bad. In fact it’s probably better than before, but if you have seen, for example, 5 animes about football (soccer) how many new different ways can the story go after?
8 Jul 09, 18:39
PaTRiX: … That’s what I feel now. I need something that I really like (or that I am a fanboy of) or something that is really different to be excited about an anime.
8 Jul 09, 18:38
PaTRiX: … because the stories have not evolved that much. I say this because it happens to me. And even if I’m not searching anything fancy, just want some cool mindless violence I’ve kind of “seen it alll”
8 Jul 09, 18:35
Howling-kun: Bakemonogatari is out subbed. Excellent first episode.
8 Jul 09, 18:34
PaTRiX: I think that the fact is not that anime was better before but that the kind of people who watched akira on the big screen and dragon ball and dr slump on tv when they first aired are becoming bored ..
8 Jul 09, 17:59
PL: whereas, if the industry wasnt profitable, there wouldnt be any anime
8 Jul 09, 17:58
PL: but that leaves plenty of room for more artistic and intelligent shows
8 Jul 09, 17:58
PL: the best way to ensure an artform endures is to make it profitable, which unfortunately means you will have anime which appeals to the masses
8 Jul 09, 17:43
reverse: not to mention most anime fan don’t know what is a good animation even it hit them on the face. example anime fan are happy staring at unmoving pic for 5 second. none complain at that stuff in anime.
8 Jul 09, 17:28
tealovertoma: …anime try out some from the more experimental side. Yes, it’s true that a lot of masterpieces are overlooked and ****ty shows are popular, but it’s like that every where.
8 Jul 09, 17:27
tealovertoma: Easier to be pessimistic than optimistic, right? Stop being nostalgic about a time you weren’t even alive. We get more intelligent anime than ever before — if you’re tired of conventional harem….
8 Jul 09, 17:17
reverse: show like Sengoku BASARA sale like 10000+ dvd in a week. untalented people get pay more. anime industry is doomed i would say.
8 Jul 09, 14:13
Solaris: I also think nowadays anime are nice and flashing but are lacking of contents.
8 Jul 09, 08:54
psgels: I think the “empty of contents and spirit” is a bit vague. What does it mean for a series to have spirit? And isn’t this different for everyone?

The discussion basically began when Solaris claimed that anime nowadays is “empty of contents and spirit”, and reverse claimed that “now almost everything get animated. the standard sure is low.”, from which the above discussion erupted. It then continued in the Aoi Hana post:

“Bakemonogatari: Once you remove all of the fancy filters and confusion that the first episode threw at us, you remain with a story that lacks depth and characters that are just the average stereotypes”
Maybe it was this i sensed when i watched Bakemonogatari’s first episode. It’s a fancy colored box with nohing inside.
Pity it happens more and more often nowadays. Anime’s graphics continues improving but contenents keep decreasig

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 12:02

“Pity it happens more and more often nowadays. Anime’s graphics continues improving but contenents keep decreasig”

Lol @ this being applied to Bakemonogatari, NisiOisin isn’t considered the god of light novels for nothing.

Comment by Westlo — July 11, 2009 @ 12:25

I judge for what i watch to. Anime and novel are related only by topic. One could be utter crap while the other could be plain art.
My first impression on Bakemonogatari anime was negative, as they wanted to keep our interest with that flashing graphics, but that there wasn’t that much of a story to begin with.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 12:38

Solaris: nah. Bakemonogatari may be one example of a soulless series (which if we were to believe Westlo, doesn’t even seem to be true), but there are plenty of series with a soul this season (Aoi Hana, GA, Umineko, Tokyo Magnitude, Spice and Wolf and Umi Monogatari, not to mention the series from previous seasons).

I agree that the seventies and eighties had some wonderful series, but even those days had their share of disasters, which in most cases were even worse than the crap we see today. Glass Mask, for example, was a really bad series, and there are probably plenty more of those series back then.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 12:47

Well, anime has always been a media for the crowd. Anime production surely grew up since 60’s both in graphic quality and in number of products. It eventually became well known worldwide too. Now after 50 years of anime we are reaching saturation. Crap haw always existed, but why now it looks like we have too much of it lately? Maybe is just a matter of quantity. We have little formats for anime and a huge amount of products now. We have too many products that resemble each other. We’re loosing originality. Soeone just told this before: now it’s no more a matter of creating new stories, but how well you can manage to tell them and how good you let them appear. So, focus is being biased from contenent to appearance. So it’s no more the matter of telling a story that it looks so generic, like in bakemonogatari. The matter is to capture the audience with good graphics, or moe char or whatever mean, but good storytelling. That’s the real issue.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 13:43

With “the amount of bad series has increased”, do you mean the total amount of bad series produced each year, or the amount of bad series in relation to the amount of good series? There are of course more bad series out there than twenty years ago, simply because much more anime are produced these days. Today however, there are still plenty of series with good storytelling IMO, also with a bigger quantity.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 14:00

The main appeal of Bakemonogatari is the dialogue and conversations between characters which is never wasted… which is what you expect from light novels.. Hardly something I would classify as a pretty anime with no substance.

“Crap haw always existed, but why now it looks like we have too much of it lately?”

I’ll tell you why, can you name another show that aired in the same season as Evangelion did? You’ve had the best titles cherry picked from the 80-90’s without seeing the amount of crap that aired during the same time.

It’s pointless to say “Anime was consistently better back in the day” when you don’t even know the majority of shit that aired back than.

Here’s a list of what aired in 95

Don’t tell me that’s better than 2006 or 2007 or you’re overdosing on nostaglia. Eva and GITS Movie are the only real notable shows from that year. Majority of 95 ranges from mediocre to crap if you look at it without rose tinted glasses.

Comment by Westlo — July 11, 2009 @ 14:04

I’m not saying that I like the old show better. but i do agree with solaris to some extent, almost everything get animeted now, the standard sure is low.

Comment by reverse — July 11, 2009 @ 14:29

Psgels i didn’t say that. I just say the amount of series overall increased, thus implied the bad series also increased. The question is, did the proportion between good and bad remained stable or not? I think it decreased a lot. That is to say you will find more bad series nowadays with respect to the good ones.

Westlo, if we take that is the real amount of anime produced in that whole year 1995, then notice that that’s average the number of series nowadays produced in a single season.
The question is, are there many more good series now with respect to back then? I think we have less, but luckily that’s my IMHO ;).

Of course whan we speak of good and bad we should make clear what we intend for. “good” is such a subjective matter. But this would generate another full thread, so let us it be by now.

I watched anime since 70’s. I could tell you a lot of what happened back then. The situation of 80’s was very interesting, as it resembled what it’s happening today. Back then the most popular format were Big Robots anime stile (not mecha) and magical girls show. After 10 years they exploited such genres there were a big lack of new ideas. So with the start of the new decade they searched new ideas and format to make anime. The market succeeded in renewing itself back them. New genres were made and the anime “maturity” also evolved. As anime public grew, there was the need of much mature series. It wasn’t anymore just a matter of kids show. Series like Sailor Moon or Evangelion also renewed the old magical girl and robot formats. Lodoss introduced western fantasy style and Tenchi Muyo invented the new harem genre. Now also these formats are coming to exaustion. Will the anime market be able to create new contents genres and stories in the future? From what i see now, the market is closing itself to those genres that are still popular and they know it will sell. There isn’t search for newa, just to wrap up something with a good container and sell that.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 14:57

That last paragraph is interesting, but at the time of the invention of these new genres, there also was a lot of bad stuff going on. Based on my impressions, if you look at 1995 the ratio of good to bad shows is about 11:27. Based on the same standard, the ratio of good to bad shows of the past spring season is for me 19:17, which is much higher. So I don’t agree that today’s anime lacks sould.

However, if you meant to say that today’s anime lacks originality, then okay, I can see more in that. The only series that really attempted to go beyond genres of the past spring season was Marie&Gali (Eden of the East, though impressive, was just another mystery-series in the end, although it did try). 1995 had Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell, the beginning of CG, Memories and in a way also the Ping Pong Club (raunchiest fanservice ever in a TV-series at least) and Romeo’s Blue Skies (combining WMT with action). I agree that today’s anime should be more experimental, and daring to try out new stuff, but that’s not the same as today’s anime having lost its soul.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 15:35

I personally believe that anime could be more experimental and ambitious nowadays, but it has nothing to do with the quality: there are plenty of anime series with soul, and the ratio of good compared to bad series is much higher than it was twenty years ago. Still, I’d love to see what anime can evolve into.

So, what are your opinions on the matter? Are there too many harems and lazy adaptations of bishoujo games; is there an overload of moe in today’s anime market, or is it all just overly exaggerated and is moe underrated?

40 Responses

  1. Kim says:

    It just rose colored nostalgia. It’s easy to look back and remember all the good series of the past. However there were plenty of bad series as well back then those just tend to be forgotten. And while I do think there is a lot of crap today there are still a lot of great series. Ten years from now we will probably be having the same discussion about this decade.

    But hey I can’t blame people for having rose colored nostalgia. I might not have it when it comes to anime but as a classic film buff I certainly have it when it comes to live action movies.

  2. LK says:

    Kim is spot on. Rose coloured nostalgia. Just like your parents/grandparents reminisce about the 1950s as a great time to live.

    I’m of the opinion that I’m watching more anime today because of the quality, alot of which is experimental while still remaining commercially viable (Noein springs to mind for its visuals during fights, likewise East of the Eden breaks a few traditional anime styles).

    But this is also biased by the fact that fan-subbed ‘digital copies’ of anime are easier to come by than DVD and dare I say video copies in the past.

    But at the end of the day, if anime loses its ‘soul’, than people will stop consuming it.

  3. Rednights says:

    I’m enjoying the living shit out of One Piece right now. The last “great” recent anime I ever seen was Seirei no Moribito. Another recent example is Bokurano. So yeah anime is still good =)Though yes it’s sad I can list only 2 in terms of “good story telling”. Haruhi and Code Geass are what we call guilty pleasures … so those don’t count.

    BTW. Gainax ruled the the world way back then … I woudln’t mind if they came out with something new and destroyed all these cutesy anime companies …. and no I did not see Eva 2.0 yet =( See? new anime is still godly ….

  4. tealovertoma says:


    seriously though, any chance you can make the post slightly shorter? >>;

  5. reverse says:

    this pretty hard topic, it not about what the best,worse or average anime being make today or before. it about the way that the industry is going. the “soulless” anime that solaris referring still sale better. in the end it all come down to the consumer. personally I think most Japanese are bad consumer. that why we see crappy sequel sale better
    FYI I have no colored nostalgia, and my fav anime is birdy02 ( that just finish being aired )

  6. ancalyme says:

    (sorry for all the ‘you’ in this post. It’s the general ‘you’, not aimed at anyone specifically XD)

    The ‘lost its soul’ comment is ridiculous, especially when you have Konnichiwa Anne, Kemono no Souja Erin and Aoi Hana running right now; those work basically on soul /alone/. Originality? Someone name me ONE season that didn’t have at least one good experimental series in the last couple of years. That’s four per year, at minimun, and usually a lot more. Oh, but I’ve ‘only’ been following anime seasonally since 2006.

    As for the rest – yes, what we enjoy in zillion copies per season now used to be original in 1995, but we’re not living in 1995. Should we sit back and reminiscence about how amazing it was back then, when the genres have been improved and brought to perfection today? Why pine for the clumsy pre-digital animation? Nobody uses it anymore not because it’s too expensive, but because it’s expensive and looks like crap. Even the digital Pandora’s animation is almost universally hated because it looks ‘old’.

    Anime is much more enjoyable if you see each series as a unique experience, instead of a link in a progression of links that each look like each other. Because it’s not. That’s why I like this blog, it treats each show as its own entity regardless of what came before or after it, and judges it by its own value instead of by proxy.

  7. shingoku says:

    Hum, first post here :p

    I don’t think anime nowadays is good or bad, it’s just different from your 80’s or 90’s anime.

    It’s exactly like video games with the dumb debate of casual VS Elitist gamers.

    My first anime was Dragon Ball Z on french television .. fifteen years ago and since that time, I have been enjoying anime and its evolution.

    Like others have said it’s now harem-crap compared to super-robot-crap in the 80’s.

    My favorite anime is Logh but new animes continue to deliver so nothing to complain :D

    And thank you for all your reviews Psgels. It helped me to find very nice anime ^^

  8. Camario says:

    There might be a few objective differences, but I think it’s pointless to pretend that every past period of time was better for anime than today.

    I don’t really think we can make absolute statements about increased or decreased quality without being aware of the real truth behind the entire industry.

    Anime is a medium for entertainment and sales, period, everything else that you can add on top of that is only a bonus. Western viewers are biased because they only ever see a small fragment of all anime at any given time.

    To quote something Hideaki Anno himself was already saying back in 1996:

    “The people who make anime and the people who watch it always want the same things. The creators have been making the same story for about 10 years; the viewers seem to be satisfied and there’s no sense of urgency. There’s no future in that.”

    You could argue that Evangelion was an attempt to change this, but it would be hard to deny that this is a cycle that will continue for a long time.

    Even then, just because something is or isn’t original doesn’t really say anything about its inherent quality. You can make a profoundly original work that fails and an entirely derivative one that succeeds, both critically and financially instead of just one or the other.

  9. AlexS says:

    To answer the initial question, I don’t think anime nowadays is at a standstill.

    When I see the list of my favorite anime, they were nearly all produced within this decade (ex: Mushishi, Welcome to the NHK, Haibane Renmei, Koi Kaze, Kaiba, Spirited Away). Others were not (Akira, most of the best ghibli productions, etc), but they concern mostly films (for which I concede the 80’s and 90’s were more interesting).

    One thing seems to me very clear: there are more and more “mature” anime, which in itself is an objective and welcome evolution. By mature I mean anime that analyse with somewhat more subtility relationships among young (5cm/s, Koi Kaze, Paradise Kiss) and old people (Ristorante paradiso, Mushishi), or anime that portrait other aspects of life and society than just school life (welcome to the NHK, Genshiken) or focus on other things than fights, even when in fantasy settings (i.e. Wolf and spice)

    Apart from the reluctant integration of cgi, I agree that there has not been a lot of interesting developments on the graphics side (I don’t say there were none, I just mean that it was nothing special, and the best of the 80’s and 90’s could easily beat the present decade average). It’s mostly the themes who have evolved, and at least for myself, become more interesting.

    In the future, I hope we get more anime about adult relationships (post-marriage, divorce, having kids, etc), or alternative sexualities. In manga, the material is already there, it’s just a question of adapting it (ex: usagi drop, hourou musuko, Youtsuba&! and many others). Since Aoi Hana is from the same mangaka as Hourou Musuko, this will probably happen.

    I also hope we can get more diversified slice-of-life stuff, which is my favorite genre. Hataraki Man was a nice debut, but there are many other manga to adapt.

    Essentially, it all boils down to manga. I think there are interesting things being produced (solanin, undercurrent, niccoichi, etc) that defenitely could be used to start new genres in anime, or more modestly just provide for interesting anime.

  10. Patrick says:

    I think the problem comes mainly from the fact that that in 80’s and 90’s bad anime was filtered for us by companies. So when I discovered anime here in Spain we only had the best animes of their genres or at least the more famous.

    Now we get anime directly from the source and the problem here is that we have to do the filtering ourselves. Add to that the fact that most of us are probably watching A LOT more anime that 5 or 10 years ago because of fansubs.

    I think the result is obvious. And, well, people get bored when they have seen the same story too many times (even if it’s not really the same story).

  11. TJR says:

    At this point, I don’t think quality is too much of an issue. There’s always good and bad, and older anime was no exception.

    On the other hand, the market is indeed narrower now, which has been acknowledged by both creators and industry commentators. Producers are so fixated on hardcore otaku tastes, making it tough to attract new audiences.

    We have broadcasters like Fuji TV (noitaminA, NOISE) trying to buck the trend, but by and large, the emphasis is on very niche content.

  12. Denizen says:

    I find it hard to believe there is any sort of decline, only a shift in market, which naturally tweaks the opinions of different people.

    Ask me for “great old shows” and I can hardly think of any. Most of the shows I consider the best I have ever watched are post-2000.
    In fact, ask me for great shows before 2007, the time when I truly started getting into weekly anime, and that question is not so easy either. It definitely shows cherrypicking at the past.

    The 00s have some examples of fantastic animation, with the work of Imiashi, Yutaka Nakamura, Shingo Yamashita and the continued efforts of people such as Norio Matsumoto, not to mention the built-upon influences of people animators such as Itano. The best animation of before is nowhere near as good as the best animation of today, I think.

    Equally, detailed shading or not, I much prefer the art and illustration styles of today. I much, much prefer the cleaner designs of Range Murata and Kenichi Yoshida than the blobby, huge foreheads, massive chins and ugly eyes that frequented the past – old anime is uglier to me, i’ll take today’s style over it. True, you have the disgusting KEY style and other ridiculously uncanny alley creations, but it’s nowhere as unappealing. The 1990s were only just leaving the old style behind.
    And of course, the 00s see a greater emergence of experimental styles of Shinbo and Masaaki Yuasa.

    Generally I feel there is no such decline of anime, only a feeling of nostalgia and pervading disinterest either from people who have watched the cream of previous decades or those who lived through them. Environments change and even the themes and focuses of the most impressive anime change.

    Frankly, in a decade with Ergo Proxy, Eureka Seven, Now and Then Here and There, Noein, Gurren-Lagann, Samurai Champloo, Baccano, Gankutsuou, Last Exile, Akagi, Mushishi, Mononoke, Kemonozume, and other shows just finished, starting or about to air, it’s only getting better for me.

  13. Wyrdwad says:

    I might not be the one to talk, since I enjoy both harem shows AND moe, but I have absolutely no problem with modern anime. Whenever one of my friends starts to talk about there being so many better shows back in the day, I proceed to list several dozen excellent shows from the last 10 years, and that usually shuts ’em up good. ;)

    Anime is neither better nor worse than it used to be. It’s not even all that different, aside from using CG instead of hand-drawn cels. Cartoons have always been a reflection of the culture from which they originate, and Japanese culture has changed over the years. And that’s really the only difference. The quality of shows is just as good as it once was, it’s just now based around a different culture than before. Japan has changed… anime has not.


  14. Patrick says:

    Even if the essential story is still the same in “old anime” and “new anime” the settings they have are vastly different. For example, I love post apocaliptic sci fi animes with lots of blood and violence (in fact i like them more now than 15 years ago), nowadays you it’s very hard to find good shows like that. On the other hand the settings about a bunch of teenagers in high school is everywhere more than ever.

    There is the also the fact that, like in hollywood, even if animes are very good they are hardly original. Maybe it’s not that old anime was better but at least it felt more original. Then it felt like anime was something new that you had never seen before. I remember when I was not even 10 watching dragon ball and captain tsubasa in spanish local tv’s, those felt like something totally different from what I had seen before (not so difficult on the other hand having 8 or 9 years). But even when I was a teenager and was watching Akira or Dominion Tank Police I still felt the same thing. Now even if I find Ghost in the Shell S.A.C or Seirei no Moribito two of the best shows of the last decade I didn’t find them something new, very original or totally different. The last anime that I personally liked and that I felt was new and original was mushishi, because I had never seen something like that. What about you?

    PD: Even I like sometimes some harmless moe-filled anime, but they are hardly “great shows” or original shows either.

  15. Fan seen it all says:

    Anime is no different than feature films produced in U.S. Both are produced by mostly big Studios and some by small ones. Quantity and originality is a product of what the consumer market demands and frequently buys. Unoriginal and bad shows are nothing but some people’s way of cataloguing a flat silly show with flaws. You people may not be the target audience anyway so stop hating them.
    On the other hand anime shows in some cases as the piece of art they are reflect a director’s vision you may partially agree with yet that does not make it flawed or bad.
    When you dont feel like they are releasing shows that reflect your sensibilities then you feel cheated, well guess what you deal with it or stop watching.
    Voicing opinions is great but all you can do is either watch what is out there or go put together your own show and release it. More than likely some people will feel about your show the way you feel about theirs.
    About subject matter in Anime there are but a finite number of stories and genres to cover and then the only thing to set them apart is vision, taste and production values. Again no different from the feature films market or TV/Cable market.
    First times make such a lasting impression on us raising the bar so high that most times new things pale in comparison.
    Dont ask for originality or style ask for unique or personal visions.

  16. Solaris says:

    I really apreciated all of your opinions. Thank you for discussing it.

    So psgels calculations show no substantial decrease in anime quality bur an increase. Ok, maybe i am mistaking, or that phenomenon isn’t that linear. Or maybe Psgels has a measure looser than mine in judging anime’s quality.
    I must have developed some kind of disaffection towards anime. Or my judgemnent has become a bit too elitarist.
    I watched quite some shows, but not as many as you may think. There are many series that i dropped halfway, more cause of interest loss than cause they were really bad.
    But, regarding a lot of series i watched to, i often ended thinking there was something missing to say that was a very good show.
    Sometimes it was the graphics, some other time it was storytelling, some other the chars, again i found inconclusive series (the one i hate the most). It also happened often that anime coming from some other kind of media, such as manga or novels, suffered a great loss in quality in the transition from one media to another. Lately i hardly felt really satified by some series. I can’t deny there are excellent anime nowadays. I never intended to deny it. But i never said i liked absolutely more older generation of anime. I’m not a nostalgic. I hope that is clear.
    The only time i blabbered nostalgic was within Casshern Sins review, when i claimed the older anime was much more better than its remake.

  17. AlexS says:

    Fan: “About subject matter in Anime there are but a finite number of stories and genres to cover and then the only thing to set them apart is vision, taste and production values.”

    I strongly disagree. There are nearly an infinity of subjects, themes and genres that have not been tried in Anime, unless you are defending that there is but one story (setup, challenge, resolution), and all others are variations of it.

    But I think it takes guts to carve a new genre, because the potential return of investment is unclear. Plus, the public is strongly conditioned to acquired tastes. It will be mistrustful of new stuff. In general, you need an above average anime to blaze a new trail for others to follow.

    Nevertheless, as mentioned before the public also changes, and so naturally the offer will also evolve, otherwise the market will shrink and many studios will go out of business. I think most studios understand this and try to explore new avenues, but this is not so easy.

  18. Sacchi says:

    Gainax’s Gurren Lagann was epic, you can’t say it wasn’t an epic anime.

    And it sold. So, good shows also sell.

  19. Wyrdwad says:

    Patrick: I don’t think anime has gotten any less original, I think you’ve just gotten USED to it. Those shows you listed – Dragon Ball, Akira, etc. – aren’t really all that original or unique when compared to older anime from the 1960s and 1970s, and especially when compared to a lot of older manga. They’re only original when compared to shows and comics you and I grew up with. In other words, the only reason you thought of them as good AND original, instead of just good, is really because YOU had never seen anything like them before… but there certainly WERE precedents for all the concepts found in those shows, within the long history of anime and manga that predates them.

    Which isn’t to say there wasn’t anything new and unique… but there’s really just as much new and unique today as there was back in the 80s and 90s. Look at shows like Moyashimon: Tales of Agriculture, or Legend of the Black Heaven, or Sexy Commando Gaiden Sugoiyo! Masaru-San, or Paranoia Agent. Or movies like Tamala 2010: A Punk Cat In Space. Those are all from the 2000s, and they’re FAR more original than Akira, or Dragon Ball, or anything else I can immediately think of from the late 80s and early 90s.

    Heck, even within the harem and romantic comedy genres, there are plenty of original concepts. Midori Days, for example, is unlike any other romantic comedy I’ve ever seen. Ouran High School Host Club, Welcome to the NHK… I could keep on listing recent shows that really don’t feel like any other anime out there.

    I think you’re confusing new and original IN ALL OF ANIME with new and original TO YOU. Because remember, just because you’ve never seen anything like it before doesn’t mean nothing else like it was ever MADE before. To those who have never played an RPG before, a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest game could seem completely new and unique… but that doesn’t mean it IS.


  20. Camario says:

    @Sacchi: I really don’t want to continue the common use of the word “epic” but let’s say it applies. Sure, no problem.

    But how much of Gurren Lagann’s success has to do with its inherent quality and how much has to do with other contributing factors? Gurren Lagann was good although, maybe more importantly for the average viewer, it was also extremely fun.

    And yet I don’t think it would have been as profitable if so much of the show wasn’t trying to be so intentionally fashionable and commercially appealing in the first place.

    If you made the music, character designs and the mecha combat less flashy and less attractive, would it be as successful? Probably not.

    psgels has reviewed lots of shows that, like them or not, probably had better stories and better character development than Gurren Lagann, but they probably won’t sell very well because they aren’t as market-friendly.

    Gainax knows how to make good anime, usually, but they also know how to exploit them as much as humanly possible.

  21. Lifecarrier says:

    I think, as the title implies, that the issue at hand is not whether anime was better in the old days than now, but whether it is evolving or degenerating as an artistic industry.

    The answer to that question is of course subjective, and depends on what you think constitutes good art.

    It’s fair to say that nowadays there are more creative, experimental ideas than there ever was –even if examples of the opposite abound–, but I see a valid reason for posing the question when you notice the recent trends that tend to reward moe-fanservice and other mix of rather unoriginal shows in sales.

    As someone above said, the challenge any self respecting anime studio that wants to produce quality anime (in all aspects conceivable), is doing so while remaining profitable, so they need to find the talent capable of successfully balancing the elements for both purposes.

    Creativity and innovation will undoubtedly get their rewards, as they will always draw attention whenever other types of shows become standard and thus boring.

    Personally, I’m a little pessimistic about there being another GITS:SAC or LOGH in the future, maybe all that’s need is one great series like those to enlighten the masses that currently drift to generic shows.

    Perhaps there could be a combination of market appeal and quality content, which some have said Gainax is good at finding, certainly a good moe show is preferable to a bad one, right? :p

  22. LifeCarrier says:


    I agree with pretty much everything you said. I wish more studios would have the guts to try to explore new grounds, cause, as it is often the case, the higher the risk, the higher the reward can be, and so, it is also an opportunity for success and leaping ahead in the industry.

  23. Camario says:


    “As someone above said, the challenge any self respecting anime studio that wants to produce quality anime (in all aspects conceivable), is doing so while remaining profitable, so they need to find the talent capable of successfully balancing the elements for both purposes.”

    And, perhaps more importantly, those studios need to allow said talent to work by giving them enough breathing room, which is a risk in and of itself. The balance is going to be affected by many factors and circumstances.

    There’s really a lot that can go wrong, regardless of who is directing or writing a show at any given time.

    You can bring together a team full of people with a certain amount of proven artistic skill and yet they won’t get that balance just right if commercial demands and requirements aren’t met.

    What good is a product that gets some critical recognition but ends up costing more than the profits are able to give back? For the fans it will be a blessing, but for the company it’s going to be a headache if sales targets are not met.

    Or you can let those commercial demands and requirements become the priority, to the point of affecting the work of the team and thus their efforts will not be as creative as they could have been.

    Then again, you could argue that the profits from the more commercial shows allow the more creative ones to exist in the first place, since a failure can be funded by a success. At least in theory, since that much seems to be a problem when there’s not enough money to go around.

  24. windy says:

    Well, I don’t see anime of the 70 s, 80s or 90s as the “Parthenon” in anime culture,there have been indeed many original shows and creative approach in them ,but I don’t think that people should believe that ” anime in the old days were so good and now there’s only crap”, because it isn’t true at all. Some of “the greatest shows ever” came out after 2005 like Code Geass, Simoun , Higurashi, Jigoku shoujo ( that became a myth), Blood +, Saiunkoku monogatari, le chevalier d’Eon and so many others, and don’t forget all the good shows that air in the moment: like ” Guin Saga”, it has been ages since we last had so much extraordinary material in one show or ” Umineko no naku koro ni”, it’s just barely started and it’s already outstanding. I believe that in all times there were bad shows and good ones, but also that there were a bigger amount of bad shows before, we simply didn’t hear about them so much. And besides even the shows from the World Masterpiece Theatre haven’t declined at all : with “Porfy no nagai tabi ” and ” Les miserables”. But what really did get better is the graphism and the character – design that we see in many shows.

  25. Steve says:

    Wow. I have read most of the arguments and yes, while I think that speaking how you feel is the key point here I’d like to point out some issues.

    The conversation that psgels has posted sounded to me like animes with good story, depth, originality, creativity, less moe, less fan services are the ones being rated as great shows, while the opposite are seen as bad ones.

    But where else do you find “moe” or “fanservice” if not other than in animes itself. I dont think you will be allowed to direct movies that has teengers panty shots or other sorts. I dont think they should be seen has bad shows, or shows that are hardly worth the time.

    It may be true that the adults would prefer deeper, better story-telling animes but i think that there are still a lot of people who actually really love the fanservice and “moe” shows.

    Lets not forget that anime has a huge market out there and manga artists need to earn the money after all, some more so than the others so i think its bad to assume that bad artists = produce shallow , loads of fanservice animes.

    I enjoy all the genres of anime. Sometimes i prefer the shallow ones because you dont need to pay so much attention to every dialogue that each character is saying.

    And to answer psgels question, i dont think we can expect anime to stay the same as it was. like lets say 70s or 80s or 90s. It may be true that there are more harems, adaptations but i think there are still at least 5 good ( in this case the deeper, better story telling more character studies ) every year so i am completely happy with the way anime is right now :)

  26. Patrick says:

    You may be right, but to it does not make my arguments invalid, it even reinforces them. What I mean is that the american and european public in the 80’s and 90’s (that’s us people) found anime something very original that they never had seen before. Now anime is rarely something original that we have never seen before it’s everywhere and lately japanese studios take into account western market sales when making anime. And that is one of the reasons why people think anime “old anime” was better, because when western public started getting into anime it was truly something that we had never seen before. Now I laugh every time I remember captain tsubasa (those jumps and those imposibly long stadiums were ridiculous), but then, to everyone, even western adult public that was something new and different, because they never had seen any anime before (except maybe heidi and harlock). With my post earlier I was just trying to explain that.

    But I think that is only normal, the more you watch movies, watch tv series, read books, read manga and comic, watch anime. You start getting how the stories are made and what happens after such scenes, with time it gets more difficult to be surprised. I think the conclusion is self explanatory, you start thinking “back then things were better” when in truth you should be thinking “back then things felt more surprising to me”. But that applies to EVERYTHING, not only to anime, it’s life.

  27. reverse says:

    their are hardly any original anime today and back then. every show basically is another show rip off, this happen in every entertainment industry. it just the way the story being told is what make it “original” ( to me atleast ) .it not about originally of the anime. no need to compare that anymore

    one thing I dislike in today anime is their shell out their best story/animation etc… in the first couple episode.( you basically “doom” if make otherwise ) back then this wasn’t the case. least amount competition back is one factor.

  28. elianthos says:

    I mostly agree with comment #10 and # 19.
    Today we have access to a lot more anime series than in the past, thanks to the web. But you can get lost in it, with dozen of titles per season. Soo, either you trust some blogger with sitably similar tastes to bring the number of potentially interesting series down, and/or you trust your own first impressions (and prejudices), hoping you won’t miss the mark and waste hour of your time while some anime gems fly under your radar XD.
    In terms of quantity vs quality I can’t say today it’s better than it used to be in the past, even if I’ve been watching anime since 1980.
    There are so many old series we could watch on TV in my country, but since the advent of WWW I discovered I missed so many series from that era.
    The ones I remembers fondly and to me stood the test of time are very few, but those few are ‘objectively’ really good, ranging from a groundbreaking history/romance series like Rose of Versailles to SD Greek mythology on crack (Pollon *__*. Adorable chara design and sexy jokes/attires – plus a mysterious light-coloured powder bestowing happiness (aka it made people high :p ), and Cupid with his oh-so-phallic bellybutton XD – that managed to amuse the adults while flying over the head of the kiddies :D Nadia:Secret of Blue Water, it got adventure, action, a dash of romance, sci-fi, betrayal and redemption , without the depression trip and self-indulgence of Eva). These are the three series on top of my head that I liked back, I’d rewatch any day and I’d suggest to others. For the other oldies ones but Ghibli and the WM series (Anne, Heidi, Remi & Co.) I’d say nostalgia factor is their main advantage. But who knows how many good old series are there among the ones I haven’t watched? ;)
    In the end what really matters is that there is something from everyone in every decade, and that there’s always something good and well made (be it concept or exsecution, or both) . To sum it up: nowadays there might be more ‘good’ anime than in the past, but what I wish and believe is that good ideas can always be found. Surely recent animes are easier to find , and that technology and digital means help making them sleeker and prettier

  29. elianthos says:

    (continuing from previous comment. Sorry I realized some words in between have disappeared somehow from said above comment too)…help making them sleeker and prettier in a way, you could argue that limited resorces compelled anime studios to make up for tight budget with plot and characters and creativity. But aren’t anime studios on a tight budget nowaday too?
    Really, IMO you can’t say that today anime is dying: it has evolved in look and style, but I consider it different, not better all around than anime of the past, and viceversa. Of course some old series could have benefitted from better technology, but hey, the old school look has it charms and aesthetics are only a tiny portion of enjoyment , as much as I understand it culd prevent some poeple to approach old anime at ll. It’s just harder not to miss the good series as soon as they’re out ;).

  30. Wyrdwad says:

    Patrick: I think if someone who had NEVER SEEN ANIME BEFORE were to start with some random action show from the modern era, though (let’s say Paranoia Agent, or Hell Girl), they’d be just as impressed, and consider the show just as unique and interesting (if not more so!), as someone who started with Dragon Ball or Akira. Again, that’s MY point here… the quality and even the uniqueness and freshness of shows has not gone down at all, anime’s just become more “mainstream” outside of Japan, so there are fewer people you know who are seeing it for the very first time.

    It’s purely 100% cultural. The actual contents of the show are no worse or more unoriginal than they ever have been, and are arguably MORE diverse and unique – you, and the rest of the English-speaking world, just have a lot more to compare it to now.


  31. windy says:

    to 28: Yes, ” Versailles no bara ” stands as a “legend ” among all manga ever created, it’s also the best work, or masterpiece of Ryoko Ikeda, this one, no one can surpass in terms of historical background, characters’ feelings towards each other and the characters themselves, facing their tragical fate while remaining true to themselves and to their principles.
    “Oniisama ee” is also one of those exceptionnally emotional and beautiful shows that will pass through all generations and without getting tarnished. To Wyrdwad: I completely agree with your assertation: that anime didn’t go down but got even better.

  32. Chris says:

    Wow, there are a lot of good points going on in this discussion. As a former member of a fansub group many, many years ago I agree with the premise that for the most part only high quality shows were fan-subbed, the equipment and source material was so expensive that we only bothered with top quality shows, I still have one of my professional level mastering VCRs (over $1600) and high end Laserdisc player (over $1000). Also the group basically had to work together in-person because swapping copies of the project via the Internet was impossible at the time, so only the best and most popular stuff was subbed.

    I also agree with the comment that there are way too many shitty niche genre shows (moe, harem, fan-service, and many others)because the powers-that-be have decided that it’s easier to make a niche anime and sell xxxx number of DVDs to the otaku who love that genre than to try and make a anime that would reach a large TV general audience and get paid making a popular TV show.

    I think that sometimes some of us older more experienced anime fans can come off arrogant and condescending to the younger generation of fans when we really don’t mean to, it’s a matter of experience vs the exuberance of a fairly new fan of anime. I had a friend from back in my fansub/anime club days that at one time owned over 13,000 anime VHS-LDs-DVDs so his grasp of anime genre history and overall anime knowledge could come off as arrogance.

  33. Kalandra says:

    If I may interrupt, let look at this from a different point of view.

    The crisis of economic stagnation and population issue hit Japan hard even before the 2008 meltdown in USA. Literally, Japan is running out of kids if the population did not reverse the demographic pattern soon ( 1.07: 1 ratio birth versus death, ideally should be 2:1 ratio).

    Moe shows trend started when more and more 30-40s age otaku category who can’t seem to grow up began to buy into the moe trend which it is hard to miss by the studios. Simply, there is not enough kids for studios to make more children orientated anime profitably. The industry now hinges on aging otaku population to survive and these guys were mostly unmarried or unable to connect to people in normal manner due to social dysfunction in Japan. Not helping when more and more Japanese females were not interested to marry.

  34. AlexS says:

    @33: Well, I have the impression that an aging population would rather favor the development of more mature genres, which I guess is happening.

    Your point on moe is interesting. So far I thought it appealed to young children and teenagers (hello kitty type of attraction), but perhaps this also extends to an older audience (specially when you mix moe with fan service and lolicon tendencies). Anyways, my dislike of moe probably prevents me from understanding the psychology of those that like it.

    However, from an egoistical point of view, this evolution is fine for me. I’m not getting any younger, so I’m all for more shows targeted to older people (the mature variant, not the moe one).

    As for the otaku share of the market, I would be curious to know to how much it amounts. Any idea? I mean, if more than 20% of sales do not concern casual viewers but is the product of otaku’s purchases, it’s obvious this is going to firmly orient the market.

  35. Patrick says:

    Ok, I had not fully understood your point before. At this point I just think it’s a matter of opinion, maybe you are right and I’m wrong. But my personal subjective impression is that nowadays western media have taken what they liked from manga, anime and japanese videogames. So people are “less surprised” with anime because part of it is already “somewhere else”.

    Still I want to point out that I’m not in the category of the people that thinks anime of old was better. I just trying to explain, from my personal experience, what I think is the reason people think like that.

  36. Solaris says:

    Id like to add some notes as i noticed some interesting opinions. I’m too lazy to quote people so i’ll just tell the topic.

    #1) Originality
    #2) Plot vs Graphics
    #3) Fanservice and moe

    #1) Some people pointed out originality is quite a subjective matter, as you find original that show you watched for the first time and you grew up with that as a reference. People watching Dragon Ball for the first time may think it’s an original show, not accounting the fact there were other shows before of the same king, better o worse done than it. But they have DB in mind and will judge any other show based on DB without thinking in advance if their reference was good enough. That is quite a common mistake, and even very skilled people may fall for it.
    Psgels also did the same mistake a couple of times. He watched Slayers new serie or Casshern Sins without knowing nothing about their predecessors, and having watched old slayers judget it with the respect of the new one. Big mistake: it’s pointless to analyze an original wit his own remake!
    The solution to the problem is to analyze our own reference sample first and place them in the right context.
    With the espect to the DB example. If i just watched the it for the first time, maybe it could be a nice exercise to go to the internet and google for some info about it. One may discover many other shows like that and may also find it being not so original in the first place.


  37. Solaris says:

    #2 The importance of the container
    Second remark. I agree that back in the old decades there were both good and bad shows, but what do you mean for bad? I urge to let you notice that you’d better not base that judgement on the graphic quality of older shows. Graphics has evolved a lot and it’s really gorgeous nowadays. I bet we will find it really out dated in 10 years from now, as much as we find 10 years old show’s graphics outdated by now.
    So if you were to judge old masterpieces such as Tiger Mask or Atom (just to name two of those examples) bad cause their graphics looks so bad nowadays, you’d making a terrible mistake.
    I think nowadays audience is spoiled about graphics. I read comments in other forums and blogs claiming some shows were so bad just because their animation or chara wasn’t good enough.
    Graphics is just a contaier. But the contenent is more important than the container. If you’re just fooled by not so good graphics you’d miss some very good stories.
    Well i also made the mistake of dropping a serie whose graphics i didn’t like at all, knowing its story was much batter than what appeared on screen. It was Gunslinger 2, but there were some reasons! ;)

  38. Patrick says:

    Yes, the originality of something is very subjective and that is my main point. If someone has read/knows about the platonic fable of the cave and has seen the Ghost in the Shell movie, the film “The Matrix” is totally unoriginal (in almost all of its aspects), but most people watching the movie didn’t know either so to them it felt original. But the thing is manga, anime, japanese videogames are now part of mainstream media and people who come in contact with them for the first time have already seen at least some of its aspects somewhere else.

  39. Solaris says:

    # fanservice
    Someone said it looks like fanservice, moe and harem are negative. It’s not really that. They could be positive, but it’s a triky device. It may ruin a show if not used properly.
    Fanservice are thos plot device that are unrelated to the plot but are used to captivate the audience. Most common fanservice is sexual related, but there are other kind as well. Moe is another kind of fanservice as well. Harem used sexual fanservice a lot as the basics of that format is a show featuring a bunch of gorgeous ladies fighting for the main char’s male. Fanservice should be used to enrich the basic plot or chars, but smust’n become a substitute for those elements. Fanservice is often used as a cover up for a weak plot too often nowadays. This is the wrong use that gave fansarvice a bad name.

  40. * w * says:

    imho, the rose-tinted nostalgia came from watching those shows while being a kid. i was 6 when i first saw akazukin cha cha, el hazard and bakuretsu hunters, and i believed they were beyond awesome. now, i couldn’t even stomach 5 minutes of any of those shows.

    this is prolly the main reason why i love g gundam and gundam wing above all other gundam series. although, i’ve never seen them again after their reruns in 1999.

Leave a Reply

Kaiser Eoghan
Kaiser Eoghan
Going back to the fanservice topic, its very easy to complain about it in anything but then something actually comes along that actually does it for you. I mean I always say that I don't watch a show/movie for its fanservice elements and stick with pictures on image boards, but then I ended up seeing a film where I actually got something out of the fanservice while watching the film its.
Kaiser Eoghan
The oujia prequel was competent genre fare, the director cared about the characters and every now and the built up a decent mood. Although jump Scares are there . And I always appreciate a horror film having a mean spirited ending. One of the rare cases where the young actors do well in a horror film. The pace is a bit uneven, rushed and a bit laggy .
Kaiser Eoghan
In the sense of how messed up/especially bleak those two episodes were.
Kaiser Eoghan
There was the sense too with both those episodes of "Jesus...I wasn't ready for that...."
Kaiser Eoghan
Though the first episode of the first season and the third episode of season 3 are very hard to beat. Adding to what I thought of s3 ep3 I felt that one hit me on the same level as s1 ep1 did so.
Though in previous seasons I generally only really liked 2 out of the 3.
@Kaiser, though the previous seasons where only 3 episodes long and you enjoyed 3 out of 6 in this season. So yo essentially get the same amount of enjoyment as previous seasons.
Kaiser Eoghan
Based on my comments, it looks like I had a mixed reaction to the third season. Three out of six, but the great was was great and forgives it but I still feel that there was more of a consistentancy in quality in the other seasons. I enjoyed every story in seasons 1 and 2.
Kaiser Eoghan
The final episode felt like a movie all on its own, I'd have gladly watched another thirty minutes of it, ending was a nice punch in the gut.
Just finished black mirror season 3. I hear people basically complaining that it's not as strong as the previous two season but I disagree. I really enjoyed this and this is a show that deserves much more episodes. Personal favorite is between shut up and dance and hated in the nation. Worst I thought was San Junipero. Overall thought each episode was interesting.
Kaiser Eoghan
On the upside I loved black mirrors fifth episode, I'm a sucker for war/action-dramas and I particularly liked the tech in this one.
Kaiser Eoghan
Yeah this is impossible for me to sit through, the romance part is also rather dull.
Kaiser Eoghan
Eh, this fourth episode is plodding and trite, feels like a bad, poorly dated 90s film.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Third episode also instilled a great sense of paranoia.
@Kaiser: thanks for that mate. I have too much to say for Flipflappers but to put them all in coherent flow is goddamn hard. And like I said I still fell I left many details out: that gung-ho potato or Yayaka and the twins
@Friend: jugding from the last convention I went to, people loved Re:Zero customs (Emilia and Rem, Ram were highlights. Or you could try RWBY characters (I for once love to see someone cosplay Pirrha Nikos or Velvet Scarlatina)
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Didn't care much for new black mirrors second episode, then again I'm not really the target for that story. The third episode while a bit heavyhanded and predictable was suspenseful, nasty/mean and I liked that about it, did in 50 minutes what some thrillers fail to achieve in two hours.
Holo is a good one :0
Materials aren't a problem at all for the most part, except for anything too crazy like working in brass. I'd prefer it to be characters I'm familiar with.
Does it matter to you that they're from shows that you like, or are you just in it for the challenge?
@Friend Aidan has some good ones there. I'd also give the cast of Akame ga Kiru a shot, I don't like the series but it has a lot of neat character designs.
I was thinking simple as I didn't know what kind of materials you got on hand. I was also thinking of Holo from spice and wolf or Kino from Kinos journey either.
Mm, Tatsumaki might be not challenging enough to design for. Doesn't Shiki simply wear either a coat or Japanese kimono? I do work in set design and not in character prop design, but I'd love to try something that would let me reasonably challenge myself.
@Friend, Spit balling here but Tatsumaki from One Punch Man? I know the costume for that one would be simple enough. Or maybe Shiki from Kara No Kyoukai?
*I don't want to do anything too complex for my first try, but I also don't want to do anything boring. Boring would be a character like Rukia or Celty. Any ideas?
I remember talking about this with Emma/Kaiser before, but has anyone here gone cosplaying at an expo before? I thought it would be neat to try designing my own costume and try something else beside drawing on a computer.
@Kaiser, I am up to episode 4. 3 has been the best one so far.Though in all these episodes I pretty much figured out the twist from the get go. Still this shows always tends to get you thinking.
Kaiser Eoghan
I think the roles/identity thing with flipflappers, at least with the protaganist does fit in well with adolescence.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: I've only seen the first episode so far. I felt the acting was intentional and reflected the satire Brooker was going for on the shallow nature of society. Bleak as ever but gloriously grotesque.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario:Good in depth reviewing there Mario of flipflappers episode three.
Good god this first episode of black mirror is hard to watch. I know exactly how it's going to turn out but it's just so damn painful to watch.
Well, tbh up to where I've seen there's not much explicit yaoi in yuri on ice, only a lot of fujoshi fuel.
@Kaiser. thanks for the torrent. Gonna blaze through this today.
@Topgavin, as someone who watches a metric ton of anime I am rather surprised at that estimate that 90% of it contains Yuri.
My god those gay scenes in Yuri on Ice are hard to watch for me. Wonder if this is how it feels to be a girl watching 90% of normal anime nowadays.
okay, Flip Flappers episodic review was up. This is my lengthiest weekly review so far and I still feel I missed a lot of points. Damn you Flip Flappers
Kaiser Eoghan
You have seen the light, not needing to know everything thats happening to enjoy something ^_^
Kaiser Eoghan
I've given some consideration to reviewing that oujia film followup.
Whether you see one or the other is entirely up to your preferences, so it makes no difference to me which is worse. I have gotten very tired of generic character types, but again that's just because of the things I decide to regularly follow.
I will say if it must come down to either unnatural dialogue or unnatural character types, at leas the character type is speaking their own words and not the words of the script writer.
Or was that a black and white fallacy? Maybe it was a little of both.
@Realjustified, K-Off wasn't agreeing with me. That's a Moving the Goal Posts logical Fallacy but well I will answer regardless. Honestly it's preferable to have neither. The big mistake you are making here is that you are putting down a condiction that a show must have one or the other. But both cartoons and anime can have both. I just think it's a lot more prominent in cartoons than anime.
Like, having read hundreds of harem manga over the years, a majority of the ultimate love interest always happens to be the first girl the protagonist meets.
Wait wait wait wait. Aidan and K-Off. I get that dialogue in cartoon can seem like it was written by a script writer, but at the same time, lots of anime have characters whose sole purpose is entirely scripted. The whole spectrum of "deres" and everything. What do you think is worse? Unnatural dialogue, or unnatural character types?
You guys should really go fuck yourself, it's a solution and it's nothing short of great!
You guys should really watch the first 4 episodes of Bungo, it's a prequel and it was nothing short of great!
omg!! I just realized To be Hero was one of the show that I reviewed its 1st episode back in Chinese Animation post. I watched raw then though
forgive me if I'm a bit too overwhelmed by Flip Flappers... For this episode alone I took like 25 screenshots...trying to write a review now...
I have absolutely no idea what is going on in Flip Flappers plot. And yet for some reason I am OK with that.
Anyone out there that's a fan of crude humor should go watch ep.3 of To Be Hero. Certinately stepped it up a notch from the last two humor-wise.
One downside I can think of already is that I'm bound to lose or break one of the detachable controllers. The cost for those pieces is what I'm most interested in.
Nintendo Switch hmm? Honestly it looks too good to be true. I expect some major downsides to this thing.
I like cartoons, don't get me wrong. Certainly good for a change of pace. But there is something about the way they are written that I find rather distracting.
I don't know, maybe if I said it's like the difference from how characters talk in movie vs how characters talk in a sitcom?
@K-Off, I said one liner's or jokes. Not one liner jokes. It's hard to explain. Basically when I hear a conversation in anime even if it is based in stereotypes, it at least feels like a conversation that's being had in the moment. In cartoons however there is a layer of artificiality and it feels like characters know what a person is going to say and has a response prepared.
That's probably why some of my favorite anime in recent years haven't been very heavy on character archetypes, or were either parodies of it.
Comedic dialogue with anime in recent years have leaned too much on the idea of playing off character archetypes. The collected character vs the energetic character, for one. I'd like to see more variety. Some more word play, hyperbolic humor, body humor, etc etc.
@Aidan Not quite sure what you mean by that, because it's certainly not even a majority of cartoons that rely on cheap one liner jokes. I suppose it's entirely up to taste, but I can appreciate the energy in cartoons like Steven Universe or Regular Show when compared to the increasingly repetitive dialogue found in some recent anime.
@Topgavin: I just read that review and his main reason being Shelter is pretentious. oh well! Can't never please anyone.
Thought I'd check out the reviews for Shelter on MAl and the top review is a 1/10. Apparently because it's a cute girl we sympathise with her more, which is bad because reasons. I mean.. what? MAL never ceases to amaze me
@Mario, no. It's more that the dialogue keeps trying to push out one liners or jokes regardless of whose talking.
@Aidan: maybe because they spoke in your native language do you can feel that it's artificial, ya know? I know I have the same problem with Vietnamese drama/ cartoon and maybe Japanese people have that same issues with anime?
By which I mean, the way characters talk in cartoons is very...artificial. Like you can tell that the dialgoue was clearly written beforehand and it never really sounds natural. At least to me.
@Anon, I wouldn't. The writing and structure are too cartoon. What with the episodic nature and dialogue that generally pushes for a comedic tone.
Kaiser Eoghan
Flanagan also directed absentia which I haven't seen yet but I think someone I came across of 4chan linked it to being lovecraftian?
Kaiser Eoghan
Oculus was a film of two halves for me. Hush was a pretty standard home invasion thriller, making the victim deaf was an interesting twist but not as unique as you might think, still suspenseful though.
Kaiser Eoghan
I never saw the first oujia film. Though Mike Flanagan who did the sequel, he's never made a bad movie but he's never really made a great one either.
Kaiser Eoghan
I stick to the firm belief that cartoons and anime, visually should do and be their own thing. I'll prefer a western artstyle for cartoons rather than one pretending to look like anime style.
But this is a good topic and I'm sure everyone has their own opinions so I'm looking to hear some more arguments
@anon352392: no they aren't. For me not because of where their production based, nor their intended audience, but rather their styles, both visually and storytelling-ly, are different
Anime,” they assert, is not a “style” of illustration or animation.
That's where I differ to those guys. For me, anime is a style. In that sense, I consider RWBY, and Canadian-produced short Flutter as an anime. Thunderbolt Fantasy is not and anime-influence shows/movies that are intented for Western audience like AniMatrix or Afro Samurai are anime
@Anon nah they wouldn't be because they aren't made by a japanese producer for the japanese market. Quality isn't the question, production is
NX and Red Dead Redemption 2 trailers tomorrow.
They are good series and i honestly like them alot more than most anime series, would their quality make them anime?
What about cartoons like Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Wander Over Yonder, Star Vs The Forces Of Evil?
In other news a sequel to an absolutely terrible horror movie called Ouija is out and it's...actually pretty good? Wondering if critics were paid off or it is legit good. Well it did have the guy who was behind Oculus and that was a pretty good movie.
Simplify the term down enough and anime is literally anything animated but the whole point of the term is to distinguish it. For to call Spongebob an anime makes me want to projectile vomit. Point is this, you say you watched a cartoon, people think Tom and jerry, Scooby doo etc. You say you watched an anime, people think Cowboy bebop, Attack on titan, etc. Whole point of the term.
For example, I don't consider Avatar or RWBY to be anime for while they use anime style, the writing is fundamentally structured like an American cartoon. Through I would consider Bloodivores an anime even though it was made by a Chinese animation company, making it technically a Chinese cartoon.
As far as what is and isn't anime I honestly think of the term as a means of distinguishing it from cartoon which gives the impression of being for children. It's like Graphic novel is to comic book. Though techically graphic novels are issues of comics bound in book form, the term Graphic novel is often used to distinguish works that go above superhero comics and whatnot.
Basically I think it was due to Porter Robinsons involvement that they didn't consider it anime.
@Aidan: Did the mods give any concrete reasons why they didn't consider it an anime?
@Mario, It wasn't the community that had the problem. It was the mods. The community made it pretty clear that they considered it anime.
So despite the art style is obviously anime, the character speaks in Japanese, and the production was animated by A1 Studios, it's not an anime? Sometimes I feel sad that the anime community keeps limiting themselves with such fixed minds.
I saw it yesterday and yes it was good. For a 5-minute story, they don't make it too overwhelme with details, and still pack an emotional punch. Moreover it elevates the song. Good stuffs.
Shelter was quite good though. It works well and the animation was beautiful. Song is not bad either. It's got a nice emotional punch to it though it's a bit simple a story.
Well anyway I only saw all this because I checked out the video for the first time and wanted to see how others thought of it with a quick scan through reddit. And I get this shitshow instead.
Playing the victim is the one really pisses off the internet. For refusing to admit you f*cked up only encourages people to shove how you f*cked up into your face. That's what really grinds peoples gears.
Yep, seen that too. The mods even put up another tread about the video and tried to guilt trip people by saying they got death threats. Look, internet rules 101. If you said or did something stupid admit to it and just walk away. Do not try to deflect blame or play the victim, that only adds fuel to the fire.
@Aidan oh yeah saw that live lol. Porter himself even commented on twitter about it, gotta love internet drama
So did anyone happen to catch the big old shitstorm of that Shelter music music when a mod of the Anime subreddit decided it wasn't "Anime" enough and removed the discussion post about it? Oh internet drama...what silly nonsense.
Finally caught up with JoJo. Diamond is Unbreakable has turned out to be much better than Stardust Crusaders. Should have waited for the season to finish through as I really loved marathoning it.
I had a feeling that might be the case considering the source materail for luger.
@Mario Oh I watched that, certinately worth it. Packed more story that some 12-episode shows do nowadays and gorgeous animation.
and I will check out "Shelter" music video to see what all the fuss is about
*this weekend to be exact.
Sounds like Luger Code 1951 is an OVA that will air next week, the same air date with "my" Zaregoto OVA.
@Mario: doesn't sound real at all to me lol
@Mario, I might be able to manage. If all else fails I can talk about the past of these historical figures.
While I don't mind watchinng Drifters, I swaer if I had to cover that show, I couldn't come up with anything to say.
Do you guys know what language the fairies speak in Drifters? It does sound like a genuine language
@topgavin: humanity has declined is a great show. It has good writing and dark, witty sense of humor. I could talk about it in length but psgels pretty much covered it all. He was really impressed by that show however.
That should be me covered till the weekend. Why do all my shows air on the weekend...
@Mario nah I've watched the whole thing but I'd heard about it at the start of this year and put it off. The dialogue between her and the fairies was great stuff, probably gonna rewatch it this weekend now that you mention it
Alright, I got three posts written up and will be throwing them out in about two hours or do.
I thought you've finished it. Yeah I love her character a lot, so cynical but witty. My favorite moment was when she read about fairy's plan to invent religions. She was like "so religions are invented?" (beat) "I've learn something new today". Priceless
@Mario Oh nice, it was one that I had heard about but never got round to. To put it in simple anime terms, Watashi is best girl
@topgavin: I just finished the series yo mentioned the other day: humanity is declined. Man, I love it. I know now I have a thing for dark twisted absurdist anime
@Ano340004: the name is Watashi ga Motete Dousunda, or to put it short Motete. I have fun with it but i'm not that enthuastic
@anon the english name is Kiss him, not me. Search through the first impressions if you need the jap name.
then that girl really loves BL (boy love)
what is the name of the anime that the girl is fat and then she got depressed because her favorite boy anime died then she got thin?
Season 7 is awesome so far too. It feels like the tone of the show is finally back to normal and it feels like Adventure Time again.
Whew, I binged all seasons of Adventure Time this weekend. The show hit a low spot in Season 6 but I think it needed to happen...Poor Finn needed the serious character development after what he did to FP.
You guys are too hard on it
Motete is very funny
Kaiser Eoghan
When it comes to gag manga and four-koma, I just eventually reach a stopping point with a comedy series in that format. Even with hidamari sketch.
I think it was typical light novel trash based on what was in the PV. I laughed that despite it being horrible that the crowd still cheered anyway, likely because it had a bath clip in it.
The PV was hilarious. I had no idea what the anime was about.
@Aidan I'm good, I'll stick with Working.
@K-Off, you could switch to something like Gi(a)rlish Number if you like. I for one am really digging the satire of the show. Plus I like that it's basically showing how an utter train-wreck of an anime can be made. That PV in the last episode was truly painful.
Feeling pretty disappointed with Working. I haven't gotten any more cynical with comedies, at least I don't think, and its flaws are so irritating.
@Adam Le, I find that with Comic book dialogue. Which is one of the reasons I have gone off marvel movies. Cartoons have it to a degree as well.
I love the instagram shots in Yuri
Maybe I can have a watch through those live action films and do a compare/contrast to see which version works better. After all movie and tv series are 2 different medium, and live-action vs animation is the topic that we never get tired of
speaking of which, the overlap between anime and live-action adaptation from manga is overwhelming. For this year alone, there were Erased, 3-gatsu no Lion, Fune o Amu, orange, and Chihayafuru (part 1&2). Those were just the ones I know.
@Adam: Don't know which genre you're into but you can try Fune o Amu (The Great Passage)
Adam Le
I can't seem to get into any of these new shows. I don't know, the dialogue always seems off to me and the forced comedy is a big turn off.
Reminds me of a thought I had when I was last at the Getty art museum. People walking past works of art hundreds of years old, but only taking a second-long glance before moving on to the next one. Not their fault really, it's only the professional critics who can understand what they see with depth.
I'm the opposite really, they're getting paid for what they said so they better know their shits
Kaiser Eoghan
I suppose I'm slightly envious of professional critics somewhat.
Sometimes you're just meant to experience the ride you know. I don't watch those explained video anymore because after all it's just one guy's opinions.
Kaiser Eoghan
Kaiser Eoghan
And I mean people who art professionals or students.
Kaiser Eoghan
I guess I'm just unsure of something, how many people watching "arty" stuff are able to pick it up on their own. By looking up an "explained video" or "explained essay" to get it, am I copping out?
Kaiser Eoghan
I feel like I've begun getting on board with the european art stuff but am really only scratching the surface with the Chinese and that stuff.
Kaiser Eoghan
And find myself missing whats going on sometimes.
Kaiser Eoghan
I'll admit I do find it frustrating, that even though I can like art films, emotionally connect at times, appreciate the visual techniques and admire them for being so different without looking up analysis by people far smarter than myself I honestly feel lost sometimes as to the meaning.
@Kaiser: Apichatphong Weerseethakul's films are so otherworldly and spiritual that I wouldn't dare to call them "dreams" anymore. Check out his "Uncle Boonmie", "Syndromes and a Century", "Cemetery of Splendors". he has such singular vision that just watch and experience his films are rewarding enough
@afgm: well, if we really go over-analyze it, bunnies can represent desire for example ^^
like eating sweet snow is so randomness for me
@Badesh: the things you said might be something I might do in the future. After all I love dissecting symbolism. But for Flip Flappers I need to know more what are intentional and what are randomness first
So Papika is corrupting Cocona? That would make some sense I guess
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