Posted by psgels on 11 July 2009 with categories: Shoutbox Topics

Okay, so the discussion has been going on in a number of posts and shoutboxes, but the subject is interesting so I decided to make one post about it. Blogsome unfortunately doesn’t support the option to move comments, so I’ll instead quote what the different people have said about it. It first appeared in the shoutbox. Unfortunately the shoutbox stores everything in reverse order and the beginning of the discussion has already been eaten, but I’m too lazy to fix it.

Tracer: overlooked.
8 Jul 09, 22:33
Tracer: Also, PaTRiX’s point on not knowing a lot of the animes from the 80s and 90s is very true. Back then, fansubbing wasn’t as easy as prominent as it is now so the bad shows weren’t subbed and they were
8 Jul 09, 22:28
Tracer: Though regardless, like tealovertoma said, regardless of the low sales, someone will always make some creative and original series.
8 Jul 09, 22:27
Tracer: I’m not trying to say that all good anime sell well (for example, every anime by Yuasa is a failure in terms of DVD sales) but a lot more are successful than what people might think.
8 Jul 09, 22:25
Tracer: Baccano! sold on average about 2000 units per volume (decent numbers). Terra e was selling around 10k per volume. GiTS: SAC was selling near the 20k range. Mononoke was also about 8k-10k per volume.
8 Jul 09, 22:23
Tracer: I don’t think we have to worry about there being less innovative anime because they don’t sell. Believe it or not, some good anime actually sell quite a bit.
8 Jul 09, 21:13
PaTRiX: The thing about the ratio is probably true, but in the late 80’s and the 90’s we didn’t know about the crappy anime. So that makes it feel like there was more good anime.
8 Jul 09, 21:11
PaTRiX: and the animation style. That’s the main “problem” people complaining about “new anime” have even if they don’t even know it themselves. But the same is true form almost anything.
8 Jul 09, 21:11
tealovertoma: There will always be a market for creative and original ideas. Be it in anime, tv shows, movies or music. It’s not like it’ll die out, and I agree with Tracer, the ratio is higher. Great list btw.
8 Jul 09, 21:10
PaTRiX: But I’m going to repeat this, if you have watched anime for 10 – 20 years you have seen allmost all the stories that could possibly happen. The only thing that changes is how they are told …
8 Jul 09, 21:07
PaTRiX: And what people like reverse probably want to say is that some over the top 80’s or 90’s anime is still better than some generic harem anime. It’s a matter of taste probably, but I’m with them.
8 Jul 09, 21:04
PaTRiX: The last thing reverse said is true, the different and more interesting things sell less. So they are produced in lower quantity because they are harder to produce than say a generic harem anime.
8 Jul 09, 20:47
reverse: those innovative idea don’t sell well . so it not surprise, we will see less of them
8 Jul 09, 20:29
reverse: who you referring to tracer. yes we got innovative anime every year, i only disappointed that the anime consumer
8 Jul 09, 20:22
Tracer: It’s not like the ratio of good-to-bad shows is any less lower than befre.
8 Jul 09, 20:21
Tracer: We still get some very interesting and innovative anime every year like Kaiba, Kino’s Journey, Terra e, Nodame Cantabile, Samurai Champloo, GiTS: SAC, Dennou Coil, Baccano!, Mononoke, Gankutsuou etc.
8 Jul 09, 20:16
Tracer: I really don’t see some drop in quality in recent anime. It’s just that instead of the over the top anime of the 80’s and 90s, now it’s a lot of “moe” shows.
8 Jul 09, 20:14
Tracer: For every anime like LoGH, Rose of Versailles, Akira, Touch, you had some equally ****ty fanservice show or some horribly cliche super robot crap.
8 Jul 09, 20:08
Tracer: You’re simply being ignorant if you think the “good, old times” were full with masterpieces or some other ridiculous nonsense.
8 Jul 09, 19:15
tealovertoma: …companies. We still get the character development that old shows focus on, but more experimentation. But yes, there’s also a lot of bad shows.
8 Jul 09, 19:14
tealovertoma: … about old anime better than new anime; we’ve had loads of masterpieces in the past decade. Moreso than any decade before as far as I’m concerned. Plenty of creativity and freedom for production…
8 Jul 09, 19:13
tealovertoma: It sounds like you’ve just been disappointed by 2 (maybe a few more?) anime that seemed promising. Is that all? Cause we get several masterpieces every year. In that case you’re not really talking…
8 Jul 09, 19:11
Howling-kun: Hm, I gotta disagree with you reverse. Specially shows directed by Shinbo Akiyuki tend to have very weak first episodes.
8 Jul 09, 18:58
reverse: Howling-kun every anime nowadays have awesome first episode ( xamdd, eden ) just name it, the problem is their don’t deliver. anyway i will check Bakemonogatari
8 Jul 09, 18:44
PaTRiX: This happens with every kind of hobby you could have, the fact is that people complaining are probably people who have seen too much anime.
8 Jul 09, 18:42
PaTRiX: It’s not that anime nowadays is bad. In fact it’s probably better than before, but if you have seen, for example, 5 animes about football (soccer) how many new different ways can the story go after?
8 Jul 09, 18:39
PaTRiX: … That’s what I feel now. I need something that I really like (or that I am a fanboy of) or something that is really different to be excited about an anime.
8 Jul 09, 18:38
PaTRiX: … because the stories have not evolved that much. I say this because it happens to me. And even if I’m not searching anything fancy, just want some cool mindless violence I’ve kind of “seen it alll”
8 Jul 09, 18:35
Howling-kun: Bakemonogatari is out subbed. Excellent first episode.
8 Jul 09, 18:34
PaTRiX: I think that the fact is not that anime was better before but that the kind of people who watched akira on the big screen and dragon ball and dr slump on tv when they first aired are becoming bored ..
8 Jul 09, 17:59
PL: whereas, if the industry wasnt profitable, there wouldnt be any anime
8 Jul 09, 17:58
PL: but that leaves plenty of room for more artistic and intelligent shows
8 Jul 09, 17:58
PL: the best way to ensure an artform endures is to make it profitable, which unfortunately means you will have anime which appeals to the masses
8 Jul 09, 17:43
reverse: not to mention most anime fan don’t know what is a good animation even it hit them on the face. example anime fan are happy staring at unmoving pic for 5 second. none complain at that stuff in anime.
8 Jul 09, 17:28
tealovertoma: …anime try out some from the more experimental side. Yes, it’s true that a lot of masterpieces are overlooked and ****ty shows are popular, but it’s like that every where.
8 Jul 09, 17:27
tealovertoma: Easier to be pessimistic than optimistic, right? Stop being nostalgic about a time you weren’t even alive. We get more intelligent anime than ever before — if you’re tired of conventional harem….
8 Jul 09, 17:17
reverse: show like Sengoku BASARA sale like 10000+ dvd in a week. untalented people get pay more. anime industry is doomed i would say.
8 Jul 09, 14:13
Solaris: I also think nowadays anime are nice and flashing but are lacking of contents.
8 Jul 09, 08:54
psgels: I think the “empty of contents and spirit” is a bit vague. What does it mean for a series to have spirit? And isn’t this different for everyone?

The discussion basically began when Solaris claimed that anime nowadays is “empty of contents and spirit”, and reverse claimed that “now almost everything get animated. the standard sure is low.”, from which the above discussion erupted. It then continued in the Aoi Hana post:

“Bakemonogatari: Once you remove all of the fancy filters and confusion that the first episode threw at us, you remain with a story that lacks depth and characters that are just the average stereotypes”
Maybe it was this i sensed when i watched Bakemonogatari’s first episode. It’s a fancy colored box with nohing inside.
Pity it happens more and more often nowadays. Anime’s graphics continues improving but contenents keep decreasig

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 12:02
#

“Pity it happens more and more often nowadays. Anime’s graphics continues improving but contenents keep decreasig”

Lol @ this being applied to Bakemonogatari, NisiOisin isn’t considered the god of light novels for nothing.

Comment by Westlo — July 11, 2009 @ 12:25
#

@westlo.
I judge for what i watch to. Anime and novel are related only by topic. One could be utter crap while the other could be plain art.
My first impression on Bakemonogatari anime was negative, as they wanted to keep our interest with that flashing graphics, but that there wasn’t that much of a story to begin with.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 12:38
#

Solaris: nah. Bakemonogatari may be one example of a soulless series (which if we were to believe Westlo, doesn’t even seem to be true), but there are plenty of series with a soul this season (Aoi Hana, GA, Umineko, Tokyo Magnitude, Spice and Wolf and Umi Monogatari, not to mention the series from previous seasons).

I agree that the seventies and eighties had some wonderful series, but even those days had their share of disasters, which in most cases were even worse than the crap we see today. Glass Mask, for example, was a really bad series, and there are probably plenty more of those series back then.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 12:47
#

Well, anime has always been a media for the crowd. Anime production surely grew up since 60’s both in graphic quality and in number of products. It eventually became well known worldwide too. Now after 50 years of anime we are reaching saturation. Crap haw always existed, but why now it looks like we have too much of it lately? Maybe is just a matter of quantity. We have little formats for anime and a huge amount of products now. We have too many products that resemble each other. We’re loosing originality. Soeone just told this before: now it’s no more a matter of creating new stories, but how well you can manage to tell them and how good you let them appear. So, focus is being biased from contenent to appearance. So it’s no more the matter of telling a story that it looks so generic, like in bakemonogatari. The matter is to capture the audience with good graphics, or moe char or whatever mean, but good storytelling. That’s the real issue.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 13:43
#

With “the amount of bad series has increased”, do you mean the total amount of bad series produced each year, or the amount of bad series in relation to the amount of good series? There are of course more bad series out there than twenty years ago, simply because much more anime are produced these days. Today however, there are still plenty of series with good storytelling IMO, also with a bigger quantity.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 14:00
#

The main appeal of Bakemonogatari is the dialogue and conversations between characters which is never wasted… which is what you expect from light novels.. Hardly something I would classify as a pretty anime with no substance.

“Crap haw always existed, but why now it looks like we have too much of it lately?”

I’ll tell you why, can you name another show that aired in the same season as Evangelion did? You’ve had the best titles cherry picked from the 80-90’s without seeing the amount of crap that aired during the same time.

It’s pointless to say “Anime was consistently better back in the day” when you don’t even know the majority of shit that aired back than.

Here’s a list of what aired in 95

http://www.animenfo.com/animebyyear.php?pagenumber=1&action=Go&perpage=30&year=1995

Don’t tell me that’s better than 2006 or 2007 or you’re overdosing on nostaglia. Eva and GITS Movie are the only real notable shows from that year. Majority of 95 ranges from mediocre to crap if you look at it without rose tinted glasses.

Comment by Westlo — July 11, 2009 @ 14:04
#

I’m not saying that I like the old show better. but i do agree with solaris to some extent, almost everything get animeted now, the standard sure is low.

Comment by reverse — July 11, 2009 @ 14:29
#

Psgels i didn’t say that. I just say the amount of series overall increased, thus implied the bad series also increased. The question is, did the proportion between good and bad remained stable or not? I think it decreased a lot. That is to say you will find more bad series nowadays with respect to the good ones.

Westlo, if we take that is the real amount of anime produced in that whole year 1995, then notice that that’s average the number of series nowadays produced in a single season.
The question is, are there many more good series now with respect to back then? I think we have less, but luckily that’s my IMHO ;).

Of course whan we speak of good and bad we should make clear what we intend for. “good” is such a subjective matter. But this would generate another full thread, so let us it be by now.

I watched anime since 70’s. I could tell you a lot of what happened back then. The situation of 80’s was very interesting, as it resembled what it’s happening today. Back then the most popular format were Big Robots anime stile (not mecha) and magical girls show. After 10 years they exploited such genres there were a big lack of new ideas. So with the start of the new decade they searched new ideas and format to make anime. The market succeeded in renewing itself back them. New genres were made and the anime “maturity” also evolved. As anime public grew, there was the need of much mature series. It wasn’t anymore just a matter of kids show. Series like Sailor Moon or Evangelion also renewed the old magical girl and robot formats. Lodoss introduced western fantasy style and Tenchi Muyo invented the new harem genre. Now also these formats are coming to exaustion. Will the anime market be able to create new contents genres and stories in the future? From what i see now, the market is closing itself to those genres that are still popular and they know it will sell. There isn’t search for newa, just to wrap up something with a good container and sell that.

Comment by Solaris — July 11, 2009 @ 14:57
#

That last paragraph is interesting, but at the time of the invention of these new genres, there also was a lot of bad stuff going on. Based on my impressions, if you look at 1995 the ratio of good to bad shows is about 11:27. Based on the same standard, the ratio of good to bad shows of the past spring season is for me 19:17, which is much higher. So I don’t agree that today’s anime lacks sould.

However, if you meant to say that today’s anime lacks originality, then okay, I can see more in that. The only series that really attempted to go beyond genres of the past spring season was Marie&Gali (Eden of the East, though impressive, was just another mystery-series in the end, although it did try). 1995 had Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell, the beginning of CG, Memories and in a way also the Ping Pong Club (raunchiest fanservice ever in a TV-series at least) and Romeo’s Blue Skies (combining WMT with action). I agree that today’s anime should be more experimental, and daring to try out new stuff, but that’s not the same as today’s anime having lost its soul.

Comment by psgels — July 11, 2009 @ 15:35

I personally believe that anime could be more experimental and ambitious nowadays, but it has nothing to do with the quality: there are plenty of anime series with soul, and the ratio of good compared to bad series is much higher than it was twenty years ago. Still, I’d love to see what anime can evolve into.

So, what are your opinions on the matter? Are there too many harems and lazy adaptations of bishoujo games; is there an overload of moe in today’s anime market, or is it all just overly exaggerated and is moe underrated?

40 Responses

  1. Kim says:

    It just rose colored nostalgia. It’s easy to look back and remember all the good series of the past. However there were plenty of bad series as well back then those just tend to be forgotten. And while I do think there is a lot of crap today there are still a lot of great series. Ten years from now we will probably be having the same discussion about this decade.

    But hey I can’t blame people for having rose colored nostalgia. I might not have it when it comes to anime but as a classic film buff I certainly have it when it comes to live action movies.

  2. LK says:

    Kim is spot on. Rose coloured nostalgia. Just like your parents/grandparents reminisce about the 1950s as a great time to live.

    I’m of the opinion that I’m watching more anime today because of the quality, alot of which is experimental while still remaining commercially viable (Noein springs to mind for its visuals during fights, likewise East of the Eden breaks a few traditional anime styles).

    But this is also biased by the fact that fan-subbed ‘digital copies’ of anime are easier to come by than DVD and dare I say video copies in the past.

    But at the end of the day, if anime loses its ‘soul’, than people will stop consuming it.

  3. Rednights says:

    I’m enjoying the living shit out of One Piece right now. The last “great” recent anime I ever seen was Seirei no Moribito. Another recent example is Bokurano. So yeah anime is still good =)Though yes it’s sad I can list only 2 in terms of “good story telling”. Haruhi and Code Geass are what we call guilty pleasures … so those don’t count.

    BTW. Gainax ruled the the world way back then … I woudln’t mind if they came out with something new and destroyed all these cutesy anime companies …. and no I did not see Eva 2.0 yet =( See? new anime is still godly ….

  4. tealovertoma says:

    tl;dr

    seriously though, any chance you can make the post slightly shorter? >>;

  5. reverse says:

    this pretty hard topic, it not about what the best,worse or average anime being make today or before. it about the way that the industry is going. the “soulless” anime that solaris referring still sale better. in the end it all come down to the consumer. personally I think most Japanese are bad consumer. that why we see crappy sequel sale better
    FYI I have no colored nostalgia, and my fav anime is birdy02 ( that just finish being aired )

  6. ancalyme says:

    (sorry for all the ‘you’ in this post. It’s the general ‘you’, not aimed at anyone specifically XD)

    The ‘lost its soul’ comment is ridiculous, especially when you have Konnichiwa Anne, Kemono no Souja Erin and Aoi Hana running right now; those work basically on soul /alone/. Originality? Someone name me ONE season that didn’t have at least one good experimental series in the last couple of years. That’s four per year, at minimun, and usually a lot more. Oh, but I’ve ‘only’ been following anime seasonally since 2006.

    As for the rest – yes, what we enjoy in zillion copies per season now used to be original in 1995, but we’re not living in 1995. Should we sit back and reminiscence about how amazing it was back then, when the genres have been improved and brought to perfection today? Why pine for the clumsy pre-digital animation? Nobody uses it anymore not because it’s too expensive, but because it’s expensive and looks like crap. Even the digital Pandora’s animation is almost universally hated because it looks ‘old’.

    Anime is much more enjoyable if you see each series as a unique experience, instead of a link in a progression of links that each look like each other. Because it’s not. That’s why I like this blog, it treats each show as its own entity regardless of what came before or after it, and judges it by its own value instead of by proxy.

  7. shingoku says:

    Hum, first post here :p

    I don’t think anime nowadays is good or bad, it’s just different from your 80’s or 90’s anime.

    It’s exactly like video games with the dumb debate of casual VS Elitist gamers.

    My first anime was Dragon Ball Z on french television .. fifteen years ago and since that time, I have been enjoying anime and its evolution.

    Like others have said it’s now harem-crap compared to super-robot-crap in the 80’s.

    My favorite anime is Logh but new animes continue to deliver so nothing to complain :D

    And thank you for all your reviews Psgels. It helped me to find very nice anime ^^

  8. Camario says:

    There might be a few objective differences, but I think it’s pointless to pretend that every past period of time was better for anime than today.

    I don’t really think we can make absolute statements about increased or decreased quality without being aware of the real truth behind the entire industry.

    Anime is a medium for entertainment and sales, period, everything else that you can add on top of that is only a bonus. Western viewers are biased because they only ever see a small fragment of all anime at any given time.

    To quote something Hideaki Anno himself was already saying back in 1996:

    “The people who make anime and the people who watch it always want the same things. The creators have been making the same story for about 10 years; the viewers seem to be satisfied and there’s no sense of urgency. There’s no future in that.”

    You could argue that Evangelion was an attempt to change this, but it would be hard to deny that this is a cycle that will continue for a long time.

    Even then, just because something is or isn’t original doesn’t really say anything about its inherent quality. You can make a profoundly original work that fails and an entirely derivative one that succeeds, both critically and financially instead of just one or the other.

  9. AlexS says:

    To answer the initial question, I don’t think anime nowadays is at a standstill.

    When I see the list of my favorite anime, they were nearly all produced within this decade (ex: Mushishi, Welcome to the NHK, Haibane Renmei, Koi Kaze, Kaiba, Spirited Away). Others were not (Akira, most of the best ghibli productions, etc), but they concern mostly films (for which I concede the 80’s and 90’s were more interesting).

    One thing seems to me very clear: there are more and more “mature” anime, which in itself is an objective and welcome evolution. By mature I mean anime that analyse with somewhat more subtility relationships among young (5cm/s, Koi Kaze, Paradise Kiss) and old people (Ristorante paradiso, Mushishi), or anime that portrait other aspects of life and society than just school life (welcome to the NHK, Genshiken) or focus on other things than fights, even when in fantasy settings (i.e. Wolf and spice)

    Apart from the reluctant integration of cgi, I agree that there has not been a lot of interesting developments on the graphics side (I don’t say there were none, I just mean that it was nothing special, and the best of the 80’s and 90’s could easily beat the present decade average). It’s mostly the themes who have evolved, and at least for myself, become more interesting.

    In the future, I hope we get more anime about adult relationships (post-marriage, divorce, having kids, etc), or alternative sexualities. In manga, the material is already there, it’s just a question of adapting it (ex: usagi drop, hourou musuko, Youtsuba&! and many others). Since Aoi Hana is from the same mangaka as Hourou Musuko, this will probably happen.

    I also hope we can get more diversified slice-of-life stuff, which is my favorite genre. Hataraki Man was a nice debut, but there are many other manga to adapt.

    Essentially, it all boils down to manga. I think there are interesting things being produced (solanin, undercurrent, niccoichi, etc) that defenitely could be used to start new genres in anime, or more modestly just provide for interesting anime.

  10. Patrick says:

    I think the problem comes mainly from the fact that that in 80’s and 90’s bad anime was filtered for us by companies. So when I discovered anime here in Spain we only had the best animes of their genres or at least the more famous.

    Now we get anime directly from the source and the problem here is that we have to do the filtering ourselves. Add to that the fact that most of us are probably watching A LOT more anime that 5 or 10 years ago because of fansubs.

    I think the result is obvious. And, well, people get bored when they have seen the same story too many times (even if it’s not really the same story).

  11. TJR says:

    At this point, I don’t think quality is too much of an issue. There’s always good and bad, and older anime was no exception.

    On the other hand, the market is indeed narrower now, which has been acknowledged by both creators and industry commentators. Producers are so fixated on hardcore otaku tastes, making it tough to attract new audiences.

    We have broadcasters like Fuji TV (noitaminA, NOISE) trying to buck the trend, but by and large, the emphasis is on very niche content.

  12. Denizen says:

    I find it hard to believe there is any sort of decline, only a shift in market, which naturally tweaks the opinions of different people.

    Ask me for “great old shows” and I can hardly think of any. Most of the shows I consider the best I have ever watched are post-2000.
    In fact, ask me for great shows before 2007, the time when I truly started getting into weekly anime, and that question is not so easy either. It definitely shows cherrypicking at the past.

    The 00s have some examples of fantastic animation, with the work of Imiashi, Yutaka Nakamura, Shingo Yamashita and the continued efforts of people such as Norio Matsumoto, not to mention the built-upon influences of people animators such as Itano. The best animation of before is nowhere near as good as the best animation of today, I think.

    Equally, detailed shading or not, I much prefer the art and illustration styles of today. I much, much prefer the cleaner designs of Range Murata and Kenichi Yoshida than the blobby, huge foreheads, massive chins and ugly eyes that frequented the past – old anime is uglier to me, i’ll take today’s style over it. True, you have the disgusting KEY style and other ridiculously uncanny alley creations, but it’s nowhere as unappealing. The 1990s were only just leaving the old style behind.
    And of course, the 00s see a greater emergence of experimental styles of Shinbo and Masaaki Yuasa.

    Generally I feel there is no such decline of anime, only a feeling of nostalgia and pervading disinterest either from people who have watched the cream of previous decades or those who lived through them. Environments change and even the themes and focuses of the most impressive anime change.

    Frankly, in a decade with Ergo Proxy, Eureka Seven, Now and Then Here and There, Noein, Gurren-Lagann, Samurai Champloo, Baccano, Gankutsuou, Last Exile, Akagi, Mushishi, Mononoke, Kemonozume, and other shows just finished, starting or about to air, it’s only getting better for me.

  13. Wyrdwad says:

    I might not be the one to talk, since I enjoy both harem shows AND moe, but I have absolutely no problem with modern anime. Whenever one of my friends starts to talk about there being so many better shows back in the day, I proceed to list several dozen excellent shows from the last 10 years, and that usually shuts ’em up good. ;)

    Anime is neither better nor worse than it used to be. It’s not even all that different, aside from using CG instead of hand-drawn cels. Cartoons have always been a reflection of the culture from which they originate, and Japanese culture has changed over the years. And that’s really the only difference. The quality of shows is just as good as it once was, it’s just now based around a different culture than before. Japan has changed… anime has not.

    -Tom

  14. Patrick says:

    Even if the essential story is still the same in “old anime” and “new anime” the settings they have are vastly different. For example, I love post apocaliptic sci fi animes with lots of blood and violence (in fact i like them more now than 15 years ago), nowadays you it’s very hard to find good shows like that. On the other hand the settings about a bunch of teenagers in high school is everywhere more than ever.

    There is the also the fact that, like in hollywood, even if animes are very good they are hardly original. Maybe it’s not that old anime was better but at least it felt more original. Then it felt like anime was something new that you had never seen before. I remember when I was not even 10 watching dragon ball and captain tsubasa in spanish local tv’s, those felt like something totally different from what I had seen before (not so difficult on the other hand having 8 or 9 years). But even when I was a teenager and was watching Akira or Dominion Tank Police I still felt the same thing. Now even if I find Ghost in the Shell S.A.C or Seirei no Moribito two of the best shows of the last decade I didn’t find them something new, very original or totally different. The last anime that I personally liked and that I felt was new and original was mushishi, because I had never seen something like that. What about you?

    PD: Even I like sometimes some harmless moe-filled anime, but they are hardly “great shows” or original shows either.

  15. Fan seen it all says:

    Anime is no different than feature films produced in U.S. Both are produced by mostly big Studios and some by small ones. Quantity and originality is a product of what the consumer market demands and frequently buys. Unoriginal and bad shows are nothing but some people’s way of cataloguing a flat silly show with flaws. You people may not be the target audience anyway so stop hating them.
    On the other hand anime shows in some cases as the piece of art they are reflect a director’s vision you may partially agree with yet that does not make it flawed or bad.
    When you dont feel like they are releasing shows that reflect your sensibilities then you feel cheated, well guess what you deal with it or stop watching.
    Voicing opinions is great but all you can do is either watch what is out there or go put together your own show and release it. More than likely some people will feel about your show the way you feel about theirs.
    About subject matter in Anime there are but a finite number of stories and genres to cover and then the only thing to set them apart is vision, taste and production values. Again no different from the feature films market or TV/Cable market.
    First times make such a lasting impression on us raising the bar so high that most times new things pale in comparison.
    Dont ask for originality or style ask for unique or personal visions.

  16. Solaris says:

    I really apreciated all of your opinions. Thank you for discussing it.

    So psgels calculations show no substantial decrease in anime quality bur an increase. Ok, maybe i am mistaking, or that phenomenon isn’t that linear. Or maybe Psgels has a measure looser than mine in judging anime’s quality.
    I must have developed some kind of disaffection towards anime. Or my judgemnent has become a bit too elitarist.
    I watched quite some shows, but not as many as you may think. There are many series that i dropped halfway, more cause of interest loss than cause they were really bad.
    But, regarding a lot of series i watched to, i often ended thinking there was something missing to say that was a very good show.
    Sometimes it was the graphics, some other time it was storytelling, some other the chars, again i found inconclusive series (the one i hate the most). It also happened often that anime coming from some other kind of media, such as manga or novels, suffered a great loss in quality in the transition from one media to another. Lately i hardly felt really satified by some series. I can’t deny there are excellent anime nowadays. I never intended to deny it. But i never said i liked absolutely more older generation of anime. I’m not a nostalgic. I hope that is clear.
    The only time i blabbered nostalgic was within Casshern Sins review, when i claimed the older anime was much more better than its remake.

  17. AlexS says:

    Fan: “About subject matter in Anime there are but a finite number of stories and genres to cover and then the only thing to set them apart is vision, taste and production values.”

    I strongly disagree. There are nearly an infinity of subjects, themes and genres that have not been tried in Anime, unless you are defending that there is but one story (setup, challenge, resolution), and all others are variations of it.

    But I think it takes guts to carve a new genre, because the potential return of investment is unclear. Plus, the public is strongly conditioned to acquired tastes. It will be mistrustful of new stuff. In general, you need an above average anime to blaze a new trail for others to follow.

    Nevertheless, as mentioned before the public also changes, and so naturally the offer will also evolve, otherwise the market will shrink and many studios will go out of business. I think most studios understand this and try to explore new avenues, but this is not so easy.

  18. Sacchi says:

    Gainax’s Gurren Lagann was epic, you can’t say it wasn’t an epic anime.

    And it sold. So, good shows also sell.

  19. Wyrdwad says:

    Patrick: I don’t think anime has gotten any less original, I think you’ve just gotten USED to it. Those shows you listed – Dragon Ball, Akira, etc. – aren’t really all that original or unique when compared to older anime from the 1960s and 1970s, and especially when compared to a lot of older manga. They’re only original when compared to shows and comics you and I grew up with. In other words, the only reason you thought of them as good AND original, instead of just good, is really because YOU had never seen anything like them before… but there certainly WERE precedents for all the concepts found in those shows, within the long history of anime and manga that predates them.

    Which isn’t to say there wasn’t anything new and unique… but there’s really just as much new and unique today as there was back in the 80s and 90s. Look at shows like Moyashimon: Tales of Agriculture, or Legend of the Black Heaven, or Sexy Commando Gaiden Sugoiyo! Masaru-San, or Paranoia Agent. Or movies like Tamala 2010: A Punk Cat In Space. Those are all from the 2000s, and they’re FAR more original than Akira, or Dragon Ball, or anything else I can immediately think of from the late 80s and early 90s.

    Heck, even within the harem and romantic comedy genres, there are plenty of original concepts. Midori Days, for example, is unlike any other romantic comedy I’ve ever seen. Ouran High School Host Club, Welcome to the NHK… I could keep on listing recent shows that really don’t feel like any other anime out there.

    I think you’re confusing new and original IN ALL OF ANIME with new and original TO YOU. Because remember, just because you’ve never seen anything like it before doesn’t mean nothing else like it was ever MADE before. To those who have never played an RPG before, a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest game could seem completely new and unique… but that doesn’t mean it IS.

    -Tom

  20. Camario says:

    @Sacchi: I really don’t want to continue the common use of the word “epic” but let’s say it applies. Sure, no problem.

    But how much of Gurren Lagann’s success has to do with its inherent quality and how much has to do with other contributing factors? Gurren Lagann was good although, maybe more importantly for the average viewer, it was also extremely fun.

    And yet I don’t think it would have been as profitable if so much of the show wasn’t trying to be so intentionally fashionable and commercially appealing in the first place.

    If you made the music, character designs and the mecha combat less flashy and less attractive, would it be as successful? Probably not.

    psgels has reviewed lots of shows that, like them or not, probably had better stories and better character development than Gurren Lagann, but they probably won’t sell very well because they aren’t as market-friendly.

    Gainax knows how to make good anime, usually, but they also know how to exploit them as much as humanly possible.

  21. Lifecarrier says:

    I think, as the title implies, that the issue at hand is not whether anime was better in the old days than now, but whether it is evolving or degenerating as an artistic industry.

    The answer to that question is of course subjective, and depends on what you think constitutes good art.

    It’s fair to say that nowadays there are more creative, experimental ideas than there ever was –even if examples of the opposite abound–, but I see a valid reason for posing the question when you notice the recent trends that tend to reward moe-fanservice and other mix of rather unoriginal shows in sales.

    As someone above said, the challenge any self respecting anime studio that wants to produce quality anime (in all aspects conceivable), is doing so while remaining profitable, so they need to find the talent capable of successfully balancing the elements for both purposes.

    Creativity and innovation will undoubtedly get their rewards, as they will always draw attention whenever other types of shows become standard and thus boring.

    Personally, I’m a little pessimistic about there being another GITS:SAC or LOGH in the future, maybe all that’s need is one great series like those to enlighten the masses that currently drift to generic shows.

    Perhaps there could be a combination of market appeal and quality content, which some have said Gainax is good at finding, certainly a good moe show is preferable to a bad one, right? :p

  22. LifeCarrier says:

    @AlexS:

    I agree with pretty much everything you said. I wish more studios would have the guts to try to explore new grounds, cause, as it is often the case, the higher the risk, the higher the reward can be, and so, it is also an opportunity for success and leaping ahead in the industry.

  23. Camario says:

    @Lifecarrier:

    “As someone above said, the challenge any self respecting anime studio that wants to produce quality anime (in all aspects conceivable), is doing so while remaining profitable, so they need to find the talent capable of successfully balancing the elements for both purposes.”

    And, perhaps more importantly, those studios need to allow said talent to work by giving them enough breathing room, which is a risk in and of itself. The balance is going to be affected by many factors and circumstances.

    There’s really a lot that can go wrong, regardless of who is directing or writing a show at any given time.

    You can bring together a team full of people with a certain amount of proven artistic skill and yet they won’t get that balance just right if commercial demands and requirements aren’t met.

    What good is a product that gets some critical recognition but ends up costing more than the profits are able to give back? For the fans it will be a blessing, but for the company it’s going to be a headache if sales targets are not met.

    Or you can let those commercial demands and requirements become the priority, to the point of affecting the work of the team and thus their efforts will not be as creative as they could have been.

    Then again, you could argue that the profits from the more commercial shows allow the more creative ones to exist in the first place, since a failure can be funded by a success. At least in theory, since that much seems to be a problem when there’s not enough money to go around.

  24. windy says:

    Well, I don’t see anime of the 70 s, 80s or 90s as the “Parthenon” in anime culture,there have been indeed many original shows and creative approach in them ,but I don’t think that people should believe that ” anime in the old days were so good and now there’s only crap”, because it isn’t true at all. Some of “the greatest shows ever” came out after 2005 like Code Geass, Simoun , Higurashi, Jigoku shoujo ( that became a myth), Blood +, Saiunkoku monogatari, le chevalier d’Eon and so many others, and don’t forget all the good shows that air in the moment: like ” Guin Saga”, it has been ages since we last had so much extraordinary material in one show or ” Umineko no naku koro ni”, it’s just barely started and it’s already outstanding. I believe that in all times there were bad shows and good ones, but also that there were a bigger amount of bad shows before, we simply didn’t hear about them so much. And besides even the shows from the World Masterpiece Theatre haven’t declined at all : with “Porfy no nagai tabi ” and ” Les miserables”. But what really did get better is the graphism and the character – design that we see in many shows.

  25. Steve says:

    Wow. I have read most of the arguments and yes, while I think that speaking how you feel is the key point here I’d like to point out some issues.

    The conversation that psgels has posted sounded to me like animes with good story, depth, originality, creativity, less moe, less fan services are the ones being rated as great shows, while the opposite are seen as bad ones.

    But where else do you find “moe” or “fanservice” if not other than in animes itself. I dont think you will be allowed to direct movies that has teengers panty shots or other sorts. I dont think they should be seen has bad shows, or shows that are hardly worth the time.

    It may be true that the adults would prefer deeper, better story-telling animes but i think that there are still a lot of people who actually really love the fanservice and “moe” shows.

    Lets not forget that anime has a huge market out there and manga artists need to earn the money after all, some more so than the others so i think its bad to assume that bad artists = produce shallow , loads of fanservice animes.

    I enjoy all the genres of anime. Sometimes i prefer the shallow ones because you dont need to pay so much attention to every dialogue that each character is saying.

    And to answer psgels question, i dont think we can expect anime to stay the same as it was. like lets say 70s or 80s or 90s. It may be true that there are more harems, adaptations but i think there are still at least 5 good ( in this case the deeper, better story telling more character studies ) every year so i am completely happy with the way anime is right now :)

  26. Patrick says:

    @Wyrdwad
    You may be right, but to it does not make my arguments invalid, it even reinforces them. What I mean is that the american and european public in the 80’s and 90’s (that’s us people) found anime something very original that they never had seen before. Now anime is rarely something original that we have never seen before it’s everywhere and lately japanese studios take into account western market sales when making anime. And that is one of the reasons why people think anime “old anime” was better, because when western public started getting into anime it was truly something that we had never seen before. Now I laugh every time I remember captain tsubasa (those jumps and those imposibly long stadiums were ridiculous), but then, to everyone, even western adult public that was something new and different, because they never had seen any anime before (except maybe heidi and harlock). With my post earlier I was just trying to explain that.

    But I think that is only normal, the more you watch movies, watch tv series, read books, read manga and comic, watch anime. You start getting how the stories are made and what happens after such scenes, with time it gets more difficult to be surprised. I think the conclusion is self explanatory, you start thinking “back then things were better” when in truth you should be thinking “back then things felt more surprising to me”. But that applies to EVERYTHING, not only to anime, it’s life.

  27. reverse says:

    their are hardly any original anime today and back then. every show basically is another show rip off, this happen in every entertainment industry. it just the way the story being told is what make it “original” ( to me atleast ) .it not about originally of the anime. no need to compare that anymore

    one thing I dislike in today anime is their shell out their best story/animation etc… in the first couple episode.( you basically “doom” if make otherwise ) back then this wasn’t the case. least amount competition back is one factor.

  28. elianthos says:

    I mostly agree with comment #10 and # 19.
    Today we have access to a lot more anime series than in the past, thanks to the web. But you can get lost in it, with dozen of titles per season. Soo, either you trust some blogger with sitably similar tastes to bring the number of potentially interesting series down, and/or you trust your own first impressions (and prejudices), hoping you won’t miss the mark and waste hour of your time while some anime gems fly under your radar XD.
    In terms of quantity vs quality I can’t say today it’s better than it used to be in the past, even if I’ve been watching anime since 1980.
    There are so many old series we could watch on TV in my country, but since the advent of WWW I discovered I missed so many series from that era.
    The ones I remembers fondly and to me stood the test of time are very few, but those few are ‘objectively’ really good, ranging from a groundbreaking history/romance series like Rose of Versailles to SD Greek mythology on crack (Pollon *__*. Adorable chara design and sexy jokes/attires – plus a mysterious light-coloured powder bestowing happiness (aka it made people high :p ), and Cupid with his oh-so-phallic bellybutton XD – that managed to amuse the adults while flying over the head of the kiddies :D Nadia:Secret of Blue Water, it got adventure, action, a dash of romance, sci-fi, betrayal and redemption , without the depression trip and self-indulgence of Eva). These are the three series on top of my head that I liked back, I’d rewatch any day and I’d suggest to others. For the other oldies ones but Ghibli and the WM series (Anne, Heidi, Remi & Co.) I’d say nostalgia factor is their main advantage. But who knows how many good old series are there among the ones I haven’t watched? ;)
    In the end what really matters is that there is something from everyone in every decade, and that there’s always something good and well made (be it concept or exsecution, or both) . To sum it up: nowadays there might be more ‘good’ anime than in the past, but what I wish and believe is that good ideas can always be found. Surely recent animes are easier to find , and that technology and digital means help making them sleeker and prettier

  29. elianthos says:

    (continuing from previous comment. Sorry I realized some words in between have disappeared somehow from said above comment too)…help making them sleeker and prettier in a way, you could argue that limited resorces compelled anime studios to make up for tight budget with plot and characters and creativity. But aren’t anime studios on a tight budget nowaday too?
    Really, IMO you can’t say that today anime is dying: it has evolved in look and style, but I consider it different, not better all around than anime of the past, and viceversa. Of course some old series could have benefitted from better technology, but hey, the old school look has it charms and aesthetics are only a tiny portion of enjoyment , as much as I understand it culd prevent some poeple to approach old anime at ll. It’s just harder not to miss the good series as soon as they’re out ;).

  30. Wyrdwad says:

    Patrick: I think if someone who had NEVER SEEN ANIME BEFORE were to start with some random action show from the modern era, though (let’s say Paranoia Agent, or Hell Girl), they’d be just as impressed, and consider the show just as unique and interesting (if not more so!), as someone who started with Dragon Ball or Akira. Again, that’s MY point here… the quality and even the uniqueness and freshness of shows has not gone down at all, anime’s just become more “mainstream” outside of Japan, so there are fewer people you know who are seeing it for the very first time.

    It’s purely 100% cultural. The actual contents of the show are no worse or more unoriginal than they ever have been, and are arguably MORE diverse and unique – you, and the rest of the English-speaking world, just have a lot more to compare it to now.

    -Tom

  31. windy says:

    to 28: Yes, ” Versailles no bara ” stands as a “legend ” among all manga ever created, it’s also the best work, or masterpiece of Ryoko Ikeda, this one, no one can surpass in terms of historical background, characters’ feelings towards each other and the characters themselves, facing their tragical fate while remaining true to themselves and to their principles.
    “Oniisama ee” is also one of those exceptionnally emotional and beautiful shows that will pass through all generations and without getting tarnished. To Wyrdwad: I completely agree with your assertation: that anime didn’t go down but got even better.

  32. Chris says:

    Wow, there are a lot of good points going on in this discussion. As a former member of a fansub group many, many years ago I agree with the premise that for the most part only high quality shows were fan-subbed, the equipment and source material was so expensive that we only bothered with top quality shows, I still have one of my professional level mastering VCRs (over $1600) and high end Laserdisc player (over $1000). Also the group basically had to work together in-person because swapping copies of the project via the Internet was impossible at the time, so only the best and most popular stuff was subbed.

    I also agree with the comment that there are way too many shitty niche genre shows (moe, harem, fan-service, and many others)because the powers-that-be have decided that it’s easier to make a niche anime and sell xxxx number of DVDs to the otaku who love that genre than to try and make a anime that would reach a large TV general audience and get paid making a popular TV show.

    I think that sometimes some of us older more experienced anime fans can come off arrogant and condescending to the younger generation of fans when we really don’t mean to, it’s a matter of experience vs the exuberance of a fairly new fan of anime. I had a friend from back in my fansub/anime club days that at one time owned over 13,000 anime VHS-LDs-DVDs so his grasp of anime genre history and overall anime knowledge could come off as arrogance.

  33. Kalandra says:

    If I may interrupt, let look at this from a different point of view.

    The crisis of economic stagnation and population issue hit Japan hard even before the 2008 meltdown in USA. Literally, Japan is running out of kids if the population did not reverse the demographic pattern soon ( 1.07: 1 ratio birth versus death, ideally should be 2:1 ratio).

    Moe shows trend started when more and more 30-40s age otaku category who can’t seem to grow up began to buy into the moe trend which it is hard to miss by the studios. Simply, there is not enough kids for studios to make more children orientated anime profitably. The industry now hinges on aging otaku population to survive and these guys were mostly unmarried or unable to connect to people in normal manner due to social dysfunction in Japan. Not helping when more and more Japanese females were not interested to marry.

  34. AlexS says:

    @33: Well, I have the impression that an aging population would rather favor the development of more mature genres, which I guess is happening.

    Your point on moe is interesting. So far I thought it appealed to young children and teenagers (hello kitty type of attraction), but perhaps this also extends to an older audience (specially when you mix moe with fan service and lolicon tendencies). Anyways, my dislike of moe probably prevents me from understanding the psychology of those that like it.

    However, from an egoistical point of view, this evolution is fine for me. I’m not getting any younger, so I’m all for more shows targeted to older people (the mature variant, not the moe one).

    As for the otaku share of the market, I would be curious to know to how much it amounts. Any idea? I mean, if more than 20% of sales do not concern casual viewers but is the product of otaku’s purchases, it’s obvious this is going to firmly orient the market.

  35. Patrick says:

    @Wyrdwad
    Ok, I had not fully understood your point before. At this point I just think it’s a matter of opinion, maybe you are right and I’m wrong. But my personal subjective impression is that nowadays western media have taken what they liked from manga, anime and japanese videogames. So people are “less surprised” with anime because part of it is already “somewhere else”.

    Still I want to point out that I’m not in the category of the people that thinks anime of old was better. I just trying to explain, from my personal experience, what I think is the reason people think like that.

  36. Solaris says:

    Id like to add some notes as i noticed some interesting opinions. I’m too lazy to quote people so i’ll just tell the topic.

    #1) Originality
    #2) Plot vs Graphics
    #3) Fanservice and moe

    #1) Some people pointed out originality is quite a subjective matter, as you find original that show you watched for the first time and you grew up with that as a reference. People watching Dragon Ball for the first time may think it’s an original show, not accounting the fact there were other shows before of the same king, better o worse done than it. But they have DB in mind and will judge any other show based on DB without thinking in advance if their reference was good enough. That is quite a common mistake, and even very skilled people may fall for it.
    Psgels also did the same mistake a couple of times. He watched Slayers new serie or Casshern Sins without knowing nothing about their predecessors, and having watched old slayers judget it with the respect of the new one. Big mistake: it’s pointless to analyze an original wit his own remake!
    The solution to the problem is to analyze our own reference sample first and place them in the right context.
    With the espect to the DB example. If i just watched the it for the first time, maybe it could be a nice exercise to go to the internet and google for some info about it. One may discover many other shows like that and may also find it being not so original in the first place.

    continues

  37. Solaris says:

    #2 The importance of the container
    Second remark. I agree that back in the old decades there were both good and bad shows, but what do you mean for bad? I urge to let you notice that you’d better not base that judgement on the graphic quality of older shows. Graphics has evolved a lot and it’s really gorgeous nowadays. I bet we will find it really out dated in 10 years from now, as much as we find 10 years old show’s graphics outdated by now.
    So if you were to judge old masterpieces such as Tiger Mask or Atom (just to name two of those examples) bad cause their graphics looks so bad nowadays, you’d making a terrible mistake.
    I think nowadays audience is spoiled about graphics. I read comments in other forums and blogs claiming some shows were so bad just because their animation or chara wasn’t good enough.
    Graphics is just a contaier. But the contenent is more important than the container. If you’re just fooled by not so good graphics you’d miss some very good stories.
    Well i also made the mistake of dropping a serie whose graphics i didn’t like at all, knowing its story was much batter than what appeared on screen. It was Gunslinger 2, but there were some reasons! ;)

  38. Patrick says:

    Yes, the originality of something is very subjective and that is my main point. If someone has read/knows about the platonic fable of the cave and has seen the Ghost in the Shell movie, the film “The Matrix” is totally unoriginal (in almost all of its aspects), but most people watching the movie didn’t know either so to them it felt original. But the thing is manga, anime, japanese videogames are now part of mainstream media and people who come in contact with them for the first time have already seen at least some of its aspects somewhere else.

  39. Solaris says:

    # fanservice
    Someone said it looks like fanservice, moe and harem are negative. It’s not really that. They could be positive, but it’s a triky device. It may ruin a show if not used properly.
    Fanservice are thos plot device that are unrelated to the plot but are used to captivate the audience. Most common fanservice is sexual related, but there are other kind as well. Moe is another kind of fanservice as well. Harem used sexual fanservice a lot as the basics of that format is a show featuring a bunch of gorgeous ladies fighting for the main char’s male. Fanservice should be used to enrich the basic plot or chars, but smust’n become a substitute for those elements. Fanservice is often used as a cover up for a weak plot too often nowadays. This is the wrong use that gave fansarvice a bad name.

  40. * w * says:

    imho, the rose-tinted nostalgia came from watching those shows while being a kid. i was 6 when i first saw akazukin cha cha, el hazard and bakuretsu hunters, and i believed they were beyond awesome. now, i couldn’t even stomach 5 minutes of any of those shows.

    this is prolly the main reason why i love g gundam and gundam wing above all other gundam series. although, i’ve never seen them again after their reruns in 1999.

Leave a Reply

CHANGE USERNAME
Kaiser-Eoghan
Later in the manga Takatsuki stops having these feelings toward masculinity, which is addressing adolescent confusion.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Sorry about this really hope I don't come off as trying to start anything/an arguement/coming off as an asshole here.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Whats really interesting about hourou musuko is that in addition to Takako Shimura being a Lesbian , by choosing a mtf character as the protaganist and with shuu's relationship with a biological woman later in the manga, she is dealing with an even more interesting issue of whats called by Lesbians as Trans-lesbianism.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Transexual, mtf or ftm are probably the more accurate words to use as transgender also includes transvestite which is a different thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Its a very good review though, you don't have to change anything I'm probably being overly anal about it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Was wandering Children chosen instead of wandering son to avoid suggesting pronouns in the title? But then the text of the review uses shuus physical rather than psychological gender. I'm not preaching or asking for changes or complaining, I just found this somewhat contradictory.
AidanAK47
Oh Tomogui Kyoushitsu? That is a weird death game manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*Checks manga cover* Goes in expecting bondage manga *its a cannibalism horror manga instead*
Kaiser-Eoghan
Probably just me, but I feel the top two pictures should have a gap between them.
AidanAK47
I would recommend replacing the top image of wandering son. Cause you killed the quality of it by stretching it. Never stretch an image.
Lenlo
Id recommend some kind of slideshow or something Mario. For me, its a big sudden blob of images. But thats just me.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I wouldn't deny a single criticism of the Junji Ito adaptation, and yet despite it all it works for me , I forgive it because the imagination goes such a long way with me, I don't even mind that some of them aren't fully developed either, don't need things to be too tidy or explain everything.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Eh, Maverick was a fairly rubbish, thrown in villain but I liked Lunatics backstory how it linked in with the twist his father was that big hero guy mentioned at the start who ended up becoming a washed up mess.
SuperMario
And I won't take "No, you don't need these pics at all" for an answer
SuperMario
Guys, should I put the 2 arts back-to-back at the begin of the post like this, or should I use slideshow?
Anonymous1828545
Travlos here: 91 Days was not too bad.
Anonymous1828545
Travlos here: Thanks for those two historical manga's head-up.
Anonymous1828434
Akumestu soo satisfying to read
Anonymous1828321
Thank you
Lenlo
A shame. Kokkoku had the first truly dull episode this week. Suppose one had to come eventually, but this one was mostly an info dump.
AidanAK47
Like lightning, I strike. Junji Ito is basically interesting ideas with deeply flawed execution. It's not scary, doesn't really capture Ito's style and the animation is bare bones. While the stories themselves can have there interesting points, they are often not fleshed out enough. Honestly I am getting rather bored with it.
Lenlo
Holy bejesus Aidan. Nice triple post. :P

So overall how is Junji Ito? From what ive read so far, it seems pretty hit or miss on the horror/gore front. Failing to live up to the manga. I havnt read it though, so im curious what ya think
AidanAK47
Akumetsu?
Anonymous1828142
Wearing a mask
Anonymous1828142
What was the name of the manga where the main character is some superhuman high school student who goes around fighting Japanese politicians
Lenlo
On a side note, I should really start Violet Evergarden at some point...
Lenlo
"Anime is dying" is just a meme that gets thrown around because of Miyazaki.
Lenlo
Maybe. I dont think average score per year is a good metric though, as the cash ins are increasing, but I doubt the passion projects are decreasing. For instance we had /alot/ of duds this year, but people only really remember/care about the good ones of which there was a fair number. It wasnt a bad year for decent/good anime.
AidanAK47
Well yeah, but they didn't have as many Animation studios back then as we do right now. So it's not so much that we lost artistic merit but rather the number of studios cashing in on popular trends for a quick buck have increased. Even then, I am willing to put money on there being just as much harem anime in yesteryear as we have cute girls shows in present.
Lenlo
Perhaps, but I would argue those were on smaller scales, and even then, thats not so different from Western animation or movies. Just look at Warner Bros and their DC push after the success of Marvel. Every industry has those who chase successful trends, yet they arnt failing
AidanAK47
@lenlo, the thing is though that before Moe crap there was eva copy crap and before eva copy crap you had space opera crap and before space opera crap you had hyperviolet OVA crap. The industry has always tried to cash in on a popular trend.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I feel people went apeshit over, say highschool of the dead because they never saw a bunch of old B/exploitation films, thus that show was never special to me and even failed at an imitation of such.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think people getting to excited for it being unique to a single medium or for, its setting themselve up for disappointment.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I just think its incredibly limited thinking to base it all on just ONE medium, you CAN hold up anime to film when anaylzing anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Why should 91 days get a free pass just because its an anime about gangsters? Go watch a film about it instead which theres probably many of, joker game fail you as the mature spy thriller it ended up not being, who cares, Tinker tailor soldier spy exists.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I dislike this "Its unique for an anime/manga to do this, so instantly lets latch on to it, despite fact that same something is already extremely prevalent in other mediums "
Kaiser-Eoghan
Case in point 91 days and Joker game "It has adults, lets pre-rejoice before the show even came out"
Kaiser-Eoghan
I feel though because of the level of dissatisfaction with said moe shows that people are going to leap far too quickly on anything just slightly different, getting their hopes up too high and end up feeling let down.
Lenlo
That, or it all comes crashing down around our ears. With stuff like Houseki no Kuni and Made in Abyss from last year however, I think its going to be ok. We are just getting inundated with crap right now.
Lenlo
I do think that some of the artistic part of it has been lost, its gotten diluted in the never ending river of Moe crap. But that doesnt mean its gone. Just harder to find. Eventually all the random moe shows no one cares about will fail and stop getting made. But the anime audience will still be around, to enjoy the better stuff thats left.
Lenlo
Same thing happened in the mid/late 90's and early 00's to American cartoons.
Lenlo
Eh, I dont think anime is dying. Changing no doubt. Its going through a rough growth stage right now. It has a bigger audience than ever and people are trying to cash in on that with lots of shows that are basically the same
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Tank you and damn you for posting screencap of loli-tachibana, I now have cuteness overload a diabeetus =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
I realize thats a very minor detail to focus on though.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Thats why I can really really get into a history manga if the art is top quality, the costume designs.
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the historical thing, I have a massive I repeat massive thing for full body medieval armoured characters hacking the shit into things or just the armour in general , especially templar armour designs. I also have an little obsession with male aristocratic army uniforms from the Prussian era and world war 2.
Kaiser-Eoghan
That recent Urasawa manga Travlos mentioned is ending also
@Mario: We might get a complete adaptation of after the rain, the manga is ending.
Kaiser-Eoghan
More historical manga I found, haven't read the second one however, I didn't hear those two mentioned on here either before.
Kaiser-Eoghan
[link src="http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Hawkwood
http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ad-Astra-Scipio-to-Hannibal"]
AidanAK47
@Anon, yes clearly you know better than everyone else on the planet despite having no evidence whatsoever to back up you claims. Thank you nameless Stranger, we owe you a debt for telling us the same thing we hear every year. Let me congratulate you by kicking you out the door.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I can generally come up with an opinion for what I follow/watch/read , but I don't really have one on kokkuu.
KTravlos
Well we watched the first episode of Kokkuku. Interesting. The ED theme is quite the fanservice.
SuperMario
@Ktravlos: If your like to check out some other shows this season then I'd definitely recommend After the Rain.
SuperMario
@KTravlos: at least Kino is thought-provoking. I can't say the same for Violet Evergarden. In fact I remain skeptical with VE
KTravlos
I am quite enjoying both Violet Evergarden and Mahoutsukai. Violet gives me similar vibes to the first Kio series, though obviously Kino was a better series.
SuperWooper
EPIC post, anon!
Anonymous1825128
Of course, as ardent fans of anime, the writers of this site would not deign to agree or even entertain the idea that their passion is no longer the same artisanal endeavor it once was.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Oh. Actually surprised I forgot about that. Yeah, when it comes to something being described as edgy I think Goblin Slayer fits that definition perfectly.
AidanAK47
@Lenlo, You can still throw down your take if you want.
Anonymous1824209
AidanAK47 - Or the women shields.
Lenlo
You know, sometimes I dont regret forgetting about this chatbox. Missing the "anime is dying" conversation? One of those times
AidanAK47
Oh, Goblin Slayer is getting an anime adaption. I was rather lukewarm on it but I wonder how the anime is going to handle the rather unsavoury aspects. Like the rape. Lots and lots of rape.
AidanAK47
I remember the last guy said he would make a chart and I thought it was a brillent idea as at least something useful could come out of this old dead horse. Then his chart turned out to be a useless jpeg with series thrown to the left or right.
AidanAK47
It does stir up conversation but it's really just the same conversation repeated. I remember stating the exact same points Nayrael and Bokusen are saying around a year ago when this last came up.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Indeed Ratings are subjective but it would at least be a general mainstream consensus of the quality of anime over the years. Not final but at least it's better evidence than one persons general assumption. And other factors are impossible to quaitify.
Nayrael
A good parody of the "Anime back then and now - what happened? meme (if the links are not blocked here): https://i.imgur.com/JZqxz6f.jpg
Nayrael
Not to mention that back in the olden days you didn't see every Anime that aired. Official translators and fansubbers selected the best stuff, which resulted in you seeing the best shows and never even knowing about the shit-tier shows.
Bokusen
I think that people who say "anime is dying" are just getting too nostalgic. It's easy to remember the hit series from earlier seasons. It's less easy to remember all the forgettable generic series that you dropped after 1 episode, and so anime tends to "seem better" back then because of people's tendency towards selective memory.
Anonymous1820731
Why are there more bad anime? Because there are more anime being made. That means the good ones are buried under the lots of bad ones. But saying "anime is dying" from that is like saying "music is dead because I don't like Britney Spears." Why does this conversation always come up, its obvious conversation bait.
Anonymous1820589
@Aidan: You are the first to obsess over the fact that reviews are subjective. And since they're subjective, looking at anime 'ratings' over time does nothing to gauge the measure of effort and artistic talent that goes into making anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which I got my answer by the way.
SuperWooper
>average review scores
What do those have to do with whether anime is "dying" or not? You'd need to look at the money.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Want to add that I agree with both you and Aidan, only brought up those two topics back there because I wanted to know what shows now will be popular in the future.
SuperMario
I'm on the side of Aidan regarding to this. For me it's not neccessary means the anime industry has become "better" or "worse", it's just that it takes new shape and trends and based on the number of anime produced, the industry isn't going down soon
AidanAK47
Am I really going to draft up a chart gathering average review scores of the past 25 years just t shut up this talk of anime dying?
But even if I did that won't toss aside this nonsense.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I know this is complete guesswork.
AidanAK47
Plus the industry is dying? Bloody hell, we got major companies FUNDING anime. Streaming services and more anime coming out that ever before. You can argue that this new anime is weaker but honestly it's just misguided. It takes time but great shows are still coming out. Just like back then.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Well thats kind of what I meant, what, when passage of time comes into it are going to end up being classic based on that, speculatively speaking.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Thats probably a much better way of phrasing it, inheriting mantles. I'm going to say that promised neverland is presently along with Titan a BIG modern shounen.
AidanAK47
Anyway my point is that the shows of the past, the so called classics, are just as flawed as the shows of today. It is only through the passage of time that they become classics. When Stein;Gate finished airing, I seen no one call it a classic. Same goes for Madoka and Fate/Zero. Now, you have people putting up the pedestals.
AidanAK47
Though if anything has inherited the Shounen mantle, it's likely Boku no hero.
AidanAK47
There is no big three Shounen and that's honestly for the best. Because in generally the declining aspect of Naruto and Bleach was mainly due to the pressure on the mangaka to put out chapters on a weekly basis. In fact it's pretty much the primary factor in Bleachs decline.
AidanAK47
Bebop is great but even it is hit and miss by nature. Doubt many remember much about the casino episode and the Alien spoof episode is likely not anyone's favorite. Eva is massively flawed but no one wants to admit it due to the massive amount of praise it receives and influence it has on the industry.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But what is the new big three shounen?
AidanAK47
If we go further back to DBZ, that has tons of issues with filler, dragging out episodes, animation shortcuts, and even complaints of it doing the same thing over and over again with it's story. No to mention the underutilised cast and the everlasting act up putting Goku on a greater pedestal.
AidanAK47
But let us dissect this viewpoint of yours. You claim the Shouen-jump canon as a great, guessing that refers to the shounen big three. But aside from One piece, the other two are emmensily flawed. Naruto is 50% filler and Bleach drops seriously in quality after soul society.
AidanAK47
Also Fate series is trash? That definitely seems aimed at me. What first series are you referring to? Fate/Zero, Fate/Stay Night 2006? Fate/UTW? The same thing over and over again? Sure each series has a holy grail war, but none of them every turned out the same. I am more than willing to admit that the spinoff series outside of the main canon are lesser. Calling them trash however is hyperbole.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Not this crap again. The old "Anime isn't as good as it used to be", how many times have I heard that over the years, and each and every time it proves more untrue.
Kaiser-Eoghan
One point I'm trying to get at is, I don't get throwing the word bad taste around when I know I was probably in the same position as that other fan years ago.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Another thing, for shows we talk up and obviously I've been just as guilty of this, how many of these am I going to be able to recite off by heart years down the line?
Kaiser-Eoghan
I don't like Madoka but thats a good example of a modern classic that'll keep in peoples minds, people still care.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*its a
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The reason I want to see a new show become a modern classic is because I'm tired of this "fleeting masterpiece" way of thinking, where I a show is super popular during the season and gets talked up as if it'll stick in the mind years on, then weeks later it disappears from memory.
Anonymous1819907
And anime watchers tend to be attracted to series that are just plain boring. The Fate franchise is case and point. The same thing over and over again. It really is a disgrace, to be honest--in my opinion. The first series was great, and I look forward to the movie. But everything in between is trash. But they still get the views, since people are sheep.
Anonymous1819907
The shonen-jump canon, shows like bebop and eva were huge in their time. The industry is just not the same--it's really dying. There isn't the same desire to blow shows up like there used to be. Shonen jump is still at it, but those shows are rarely worth watching, even if they're popular
Anonymous1819907
its a good anime, but it doesn't have the same staying power since it was not an entire industry
Kaiser-Eoghan
Sorry for the long post, I want to get people talking again here.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I would love for this to happen with, say, made in Abyss, that becoming a show that we remember decades from now and still talk about.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Something else I want to bring up, what shows do you all REALLY believe will still be talked about in the future . Bebop and Eva still come up regularly to this day, what new shows do you think will become big classics.
Kaiser-Eoghan
To base taste on things you watched ages ago doesn't really work.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I bring that up because I remember a comment somewhere I read that said, the people who trashed guilty crown, forget geass was 10 years ago and if guilty crown had came out back then instead of geass they would have embraced it instead at the time.
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the bad taste thing, I could easily say Mahouka or sword art are terrible, but back when I watched and loved code geass people where probably bashing it as overhyped shit in the same way people like to do with sword art/mahouka now.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I sure years ago I would have been all over violet evergarden.
Kaiser-Eoghan
For example most anime/manga melodrama has lost its effect on me, I hate Clannad and Kanon now and I won't watch the new code geass season because I want to crop it and death note both up to a teenage error and mistake.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And in some cases it only takes five or so years.
Kaiser-Eoghan
If not that, it’s the show no one gave a shit about that you loved or it’s a recent gem.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And it hit me, the stuff you often end up loving, becoming a measure of your true taste, in my case at least are the re-discoveries, the show you HATED or didn’t get the first time round, maybe you watched it again soon after or years later, but then it does something for you that tops anything you watched in your early days.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Then I remember theres a huge amount of big shounens I never cared for and popular writers that I never liked or if I did found somewhat overated.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Given that I’m in my thirties and have been watching anime, reading manga since I was 11, that’s led to a very very large re-watch list, something things I will NEVER get the time to go back to re-assess , for all I know they could actually be terrible series. Then there’s when I DO go back on shows and let’s face it most DON’T hold up (of course its good when they do hold up).
Kaiser-Eoghan
This has been on my back/mind for a bit now, to where I’m actually somewhat confused by this “tastes” thing in relation to myself.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Out of nowhere comment don't you think? Besides it ain't that I have perfect taste. It's just that my taste is the only one that matters.
Anonymous1819624
@Aidan you don't need to keep pretending you have perfect taste in anime. we are all aware your taste is often questionable, as all of ours are at times.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Its kind of a pity because there were moments where I saw potential in it and thought maybe this would be some kind of exception.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But to more calmly review this, I do think its possible to present topics like this, though in a more accessible way, I think even someone more versed in this would be bothered by this presentation, in addition to this manga never flowing properly, the dialogue just feels it was ripped directly from an article or book.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I suppose in all fairness, its right to say I never studied any of these subjects in much detail that it brings up and never did anything sciencey for more than two years at school so I was probably doomed from the start.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I know the expected response to what I said there is "why do you read/continue to read things you know you won't like" but if I don't come out of my comfort zone theres no chance of me being surprised.
AidanAK47
Hehe..well Kaiser, I don't remember saying it was good. I just said it was an insane ride. I found its concept interesting but the presentation was just terrible.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Sorry for ranting but this makes my blood absolutely seethe and boil.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I got to the last two chapters and just stopped caring, the info dumping, the multiple lives thing, especially the my own father/mother thing and magical girl part....fuck...
Kaiser-Eoghan
And yes I'm talking about Qualia....this...was....abject...punishing headwrecking agony to read.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Okay fuck it, just fuck it, I refuse, absolutely refuse to touch anything involving many worlds interpretation, time travel, shared memory,multiple runthroughs/loops ever again under any any circumstances, this is the worst form of storytelling I can possibly sit through from my perspective , I cannot finish this its impossible.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I've given away/sold/thrown out anime/manga before, including figures and posters while keeping others , can't remember off hand, but it was to free space.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Together we make....tiger and dragon....Toradora =O
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: To be clearer, any interesting series/films they threw out?
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Anything else interesting they threw out?
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I'm year of the tiger, Aidan is year of the dragon.
SuperMario
And today is the Lunar New Year, happy new year guys! It's a year of the Dog so for those who is born in the year of the Dog... my condolenses since it is supposed to be your bad luck year
SuperMario
I think they move away so they just throw all their dvds there. There were other live action movies and series in there
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Strange that if he truly didn't want it that he never decided to just sell it.
SuperMario
@Aidan: I tested it and all of the DVDs are playable. The package includes the whole show and the movie. Not a scratch either
Kaiser-Eoghan
pppftt, not leaving it in the trash and instead going out and getting the blurays instead =P
Lenlo
Ha, shouldnt be surprised you read it to
AidanAK47
Everytime I read a newly translated Re:Zero chapter I just hunger for a new anime season. The latest chapter would be fantastic animated
AidanAK47
@Mario, Maybe the discs got scratched and the don't work anymore? Otherwise this is blasphemy if the highest degree.
SuperMario
Don't know how should I feel about that :))
SuperMario
Can you believe it? Someone in my apartment just threw away the Cowboy Bebop boxset. Normally I don't pick up someone's trash but it's a crime NOT TO in this case. %$^&&
Kaiser-Eoghan
I will hearby read Murasakiro Qualia!
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Very good voice casting decision with hourou musuko, the voice actor for the protaganist was an actual 14 year old and sounds kind of androgynous anyway.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: it comes as no surprise for me if the mangaka of Housou Musuko is a lesbian, since the show has a honest feeling if someone who actually experience those issues
Kaiser-Eoghan
So that probably came after or something.
Kaiser-Eoghan
None of those episodes 30 involved this ant-arc Aidan mentioned as I recall.
Bokusen
0_o What the heck...It must take a long while to get good then.
Kaiser-Eoghan
All I was told by a hunter x hunter fan on here was after I said I'd watched 30 episodes was "I wonder if the next arc will change your mind"
Bokusen
Does Hunter x Hunter really take 40 eps to get good? I've been thinking of watching it since I really liked YYH & it's the same mangaka. I got hooked on YYH by episode 7, but if HxH takes 40 eps to hook me I might get tired of it before then.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And in some cases it can represent an temporary escape from the self.
Kaiser-Eoghan
As an odd, maybe interesting relevant point, in some cases, well I think most a non-mtf , both a physical and psychological male, if they wear female clothing, the body reacts as if its like contact with a woman.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Or for a very old manga on that theme: http://mangakakalot.com/chapter/claudine/chapter_0
Total users: 30

Star Crossed Anime Blog

3 User(s) Online Join Server

Featured Posts

Fate/Extra Last Encore – 04[No Faith may King]

Well is it just going to be a thing from now on to have Nero take a bath in between floors? The large amount of Nero fanservice seems a bit of the excessive side and I feel like shaft is to blame for that. As a matter of fact now might be a good time […]

Darling in the Franxx – 06[Darling in the FranXX]

Today on Darling and the Franxx, Hiro pierces the heavens. Darling in the Franxx manages to carry itself on the action of this episode as it was quite the engaging spectacle. Nearly a constant episode of action which is bad news for me as these are often the hardest to blog. Animation remained pretty consistent […]

Junji Ito Collection – 07[Used Record/Town of No Roads]

This has to be the weirdest episode of this show yet. The first story was rather standard, namely about a record that causes people to become obsessed with it upon listening and seems to lead to the owner’s death. Not much to say about this one as what you see is what you get. I […]

Mahoutsukai no Yome – 19 [Any port in a storm]

Hello and welcome to a very… contentious episode of Mahoutsukai, at least for me. This week we have two halves of the same episode, with wildly different tones and quality. The first half being inconsistent and dull, while the second is interesting and successfully, but slowly, ramps up its tension. Overall concerning, but lets jump […]

After the Rain – 06 [Fine Rain]

This week is another light week in terms of central romance development between our leads, as the first half spends its time to Haruka, Tachibana’s childhood friend. Thank God, even with this segment that feels more like a side story, Ameagari still continues to hold up very well. Haruka always feels that she is left […]

Violet Evergarden – 06 [Somewhere, Under a Starry Sky]

This episode of Violet Evergarden, Violet learns the feeling of loneliness, AND I find myself largely indifferent to it. Not a bad episode by all mean but when the show makes same old beats and adds little thing to the table, it doesn’t leave much lasting impact. Let’s get to the positives first, I really […]

A Place Further than the Universe – 07 [The Ship That Sees the Universe]

“I boarded this ship to do catchy, witty, sensational reporting! I want to open the treasure chest of Antarctica that my mother wrote about with my own hands! Everyone, let’s go to Antarctica together!” Although Universe is a show about the girls heading off to freaking Antarctica, the last couple episodes make it clear that […]

Darling in the Franxx – 05[Your Thorn, My Badge]

Today on Darling in the Franxx, Hiro gets a STD. This was a surprisingly good episode as I found myself pretty engaged with the goings on of the plot. Now previous episodes of Franxx haven’t been all that bad besides the excessive sex symbolism but up until this point I would have deemed this show […]

Junji Ito Collection – 06[Window Next Door/Gentle Goodbye]

My friends, I lament to say my interest in this series has fallen to a degree that I really can’t seem to care all that much about it. It’s a shame that it should turn out this way but not entirely unexpected. Our first story has to do with a boy being tormented by his […]

Latest Reviews

Mary and the Witch’s Flower – 73/100 (Joint Review)

Wooper: Mary and the Witch’s Flower is the first feature film from Studio Ponoc, which spun off from Studio Ghibli in early 2015. Given Ghibli’s towering reputation, the bar was high for this inaugural flick, which recently made its way to U.S. theaters, giving Lenlo and I a chance to see it on the big […]

In This Corner of the World (2016) Movie Review – 90/100

In this Corner of the World (for the purpose of this review, I’ll refer it as “Corner”), is the truest slice of life drama if you ever encounter one, in that it’s a slice into an ordinary life of an ordinary girl during the War period. That speaks into the very first strength of Corner, […]

Houseki no Kuni (Fall 2017) Review – 92/100

Make no mistake, Houseki no Kuni is the most ambitious anime project of the year. Not only because it’s an entirely CG project (and make a damn good use of it, mind you), or because of its narrative scope that at once strange, grand and beauty, but also in its very conception in their production […]

Fate/Apocrypha Anime Review – 64/100

I was quite excited for Apocrypha and in the so called year of Fate adaptations, it looked to be the crown jewel. Sadly, partly due to lacking adaption and the source lacking in areas, this anime turned out to be not quite the jewel I thought it would be. It’s hard to call this a […]

Kino’s Journey -The Beautiful World Anime Review – 73/100

One of the surprises of the year was to see the return of Kino’s Journey, a very well regarded and more unique anime among those deemed classic. Many, myself included, were very much looking forward to the return of Kino and her talking Motorrad. Though due to some factors this series doesn’t quite live up […]

Girls’ Last Tour (Fall 2017) Review – 86/100

Girls’ Last Tour falls within my favorite new trend that emerging the anime medium over the last decade: a dark moe anime. Set in a post-apocalyptic world where the human race has almost extinct, our two girls wandering around the world in their kettenkrad looking for food and shelter. If it sounds a bit bleak […]

Two tales of War: Reviewing The Heroic Legend of Arslan and Altair: A Record of Battles

It would not be an exaggeration to say that my favorite type of anime is the political-military epic. This comes partly out of my profession, I study war and politics, but also my hobby, as military and political history is something I enjoy. When it comes to anime there is a clear sub-category that can […]

The Night is Short, Walk On Girl (2017) Movie Review – 92.5/100

“How many decades have passed since our drinking contest?” “It hasn’t been that long. It was only a few hours ago, this very night!” That gap in time perceiving plays a significant role in Night is Short. For you see, it all depends on how our perception of the surroundings and time itself can affect […]

Ballroom e Youkoso Review – 65/100

In the weeks leading up to the summer 2017 season, Ballroom e Youkoso was one of the most buzzed-about new series. Produced by the Production I.G. team responsible for the smash hit Haikyuu!!, and set to air on Amazon’s brand new Anime Strike service, the series had no shortage of promotion or hype behind it. […]