Posted by psgels on 25 August 2009 with categories: Shoutbox Topics

One of the downsides of this site is that sometimes discussions erupt in the shoutbox that go way beyond its capacity. At the moment, I really don’t have a clear-cut solution for this. The cbox utility really is the best free type of shoutbox that I could find. I’m open for suggestions, though.

Anyway, the least thing I can do is create a proper post for it. I personally haven’t seen the Nana so I can’t exactly comment on it, but there have been plenty of readers with some interesting thoughts on the subject. Opio for example claims:

“Mhmm yea, I’d have to say NANA is the most realistic/engaging shoujo I’ve ever watched. I’ve watched the season like 3 times and following the manga currently. I just really felt the realtionships were so realistic and the way the characters acted were amazin”

On the contrary, Theowne wasn’t impressed:

“Didn’t get too far with NANA, just seemed like superficial characters having superficial relationships. I’ll pass.”

“Meh, it’s a matter of your attitude or personality. Me, I just didn’t care about any of the NANA characters. Complete opposite of Honey and Clover.”

Sappire adds:

“One of the Nanas is indeed superficial, but so are many people in real life. I think NANA does a realistic portrait of people’s feelings and fears, it’s definitely worth a watch.”

senerikfred also liked the realism in Nana:

“I’m with Opio-NNANA’s characters are engagingly realistic. Hachi ended up as one of my favorite characters all-time. She’s shallow for sure, but not an idiot or malicious.”

“Gack. I don’t usually watch stuff as predictable as NANA, but what I like about it is that there aren’t dramatic twists left and right, and it’s so meticuous in fleshing out the characters that more often than not, you know exactly what’s going to happen. It’s made clear exactly what everyone’s reasons are. And damn, DERP isn’t everything there is to like.”

But Theowne notes:

“I’m sure its realistic.=) It’s similar to why I don’t read “realistic” celebrity gossip. I just don’t care about these superficial soap-operas of such characters, and so it felt emotionally hollow. And remember, this is all just my own honest reaction, different people will interpret it their own way. I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong. =)”

I know I missed a number of posts, but this seems to be the gist of it. Now, go ahead with your discussion without those nasty limitations of that shoutbox. ;)

27 Responses

  1. AlexS says:

    Looks to me like there is a consensus about Nana being more realistic than the average shoujo.

    The discussion seems more to be whether the characters themselves are engaging or not, but that’s a very different question.

  2. Julian says:

    Nana And BECK are simply just superior to NaNa -_-, NaNa is just overly dark…which doesn’t suit many ppl.

  3. senerikfred says:

    . . .I should’ve mentioned that I wasn’t implying you should do this, but hey, this works too.

    First off, that NANA is realistic is something most of us already agreed on. Theowne is the only one to dispute liking it in the first place, and he stated that it was a matter of personal taste.
    Can’t exactly deny NANA’s similarity to celebrity gossip, because the story is EXACTLY the kind of ‘scandalous’ thing that would go down as a celebrity legend IRL, at least partly because it does center around two bands, one of whom is already extremely popular where the series starts.
    But I don’t think that it’s superficial. Even Hachi herself, I don’t find superficial, at least once she’s developed. As opposed to the typical shoujo heroine who starts a twit, gets thrown into an unbelievable situation, stays a twit, and lives happily ever after for her trouble, Hachi lives a normal life, pursues whims of romanticism, never learns to be self-sufficient, develops self-destructive habits, and by the time her stresses force her to be more self-conscious, she’s tangled up in issues that she’s much too weak a person to handle. Her feelings are genuine, and she understands that she’s headed in the wrong direction. As much as she hates herself, she’s very aware that she’s ill-equipped to fix anything, and is left constantly regretful. She’s a hell of an interesting character. Usually, such dependent girls are simply depicted as being the useless bitch on the side who ruins things for everyone for no reason. Every character is treated similarly-they try to do what they think is a good idea to do, but what they choose and what they believe to be ‘good’ in the first place varies widely, each with their own flaws. Even characters who get less than ten minutes of screentime are shown to have their own reasons. Like Julian said, the darkness of the whole thing just isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.

  4. kagura says:

    Every time I see a comment saying that characters in Nana are superficial, I start to wonder if we’ve really seen the same anime. For me, it’d be hard to find another series that had me so engaged in its characters and their problems as Nana did.

    As for the main character of the story, I just can’t see Hachi as superficial. Sure, I agree she is a flawed character, somewhat naive, or even shallow at times, but that’s what makes her real to me. I couldn’t help but cheer her on throughout the whole series, want the best for her, cry at her failures… even though I knew she herself was the reason of all her problems, since most of the choices she made were totally wrong and she was just the type to bring disasters on herself… but to say she was superficial? Hell no. I’m sure it would be impossible for me to get so worked up over some superficial characters.

    Nana is definetely one of the best and most engaging anime series I’ve ever seen, even though emotionally it left me feeling as if run over by a truck or something (I’ve cried a lot of tears while watching it, which was strange even for me). And oh, while Paradise Kiss was a total disaster for me, Nana, on the contrary, is the best example of how Yazawa Ai’s manga should be adapted into anime.

    And somehow I don’t really see much sense in comparing Nana to Honey & Clover. While both those series deal with young people trying to find their place in the world, they’re just too different from each other, and not comparable, at least in my book. H&C had similarily strong impact on me, but the feelings it left me with were totally different.

    Sorry, if the comment was more emotional on my part than constructive, but Nana left too big of an impression on me to be able to just talk about it calmly.

    And it was a great idea to actually make a topic of this on the blog. I couldn’t have expressed all that I wanted to in the shoutbox :)

  5. c160 says:

    First of all,Nana,for me,is as realistic as far as manga and anime goes.But of course people may answer differently to it,though for me,the two Nanas hits especially close to home cause I know people who thinks almost on the same line as them.From Hachi/Nana Komatsu’s fickle,shallow self,whom never seem to learn from her mistakes and Nana Osaki trust problems.

    I went into the series because it promises not the usual shoujo formula of girl meets boy,they fall in love,show their hardships as they try to reach their happy end which usually comes in the form of marriage.I’m bored,tired and a bit sick with that formula already.Its just not realistic,that happy-ever-after-marriage ending.Life is not all about trying to reach that happy end which comes in the form of marriage which most shoujo stories ends up showing you know.Instead,NANA is about a story of two girls,and the challenges they face and how they become each other’s most important person.And it’s shown in a very realistic way too.The problems they face,loneliness,trust problems,famliy problems,money problems,and all sort of other real problems that real people face.Not just the usual “do you love her or do you love me” question.

    Of course,for complete character development,we’ll need to see a 2nd season..And it’s better be animated in all Mouryo no Hako quality or higher too :)

  6. Theowne says:

    Well, look, I’ll declare easily that my opinion is a very personal one. I won’t make objective statements on the quality of the writing or development, just give an opinion from one kind of anime fan.

    You guys keep misunderstanding my use of “superficial”. I’m not saying the anime itself is thin in its portrayals or that it isn’t well done, I’m saying that I find the characters themselves, as people, to be superficial people and thus I didn’t care about them or their relationships. I’m not saying it isn’t realistic, I know that there’s plenty of people like this in reality, and this anime is an honest portrayal of them. But at the same time, I think there are a lot of people like me who like earnest love stories that seem meaningful. The romance in NANA just doesn’t seem that way to me with its soap-opera-ish patterns. I stand by my comparison with celebrity gossip.

    I compare it to Honey and Clover because IMO that show has a similar kind of genre to NANA (young adults finding themselves), but the characters in that one are the kind of people I can actually grow to care about – intelligent, mature, thoughtful. And so their relationships feel so much more significant to me, I became more invested than I ever did with the soap opera of Hachi’s life.

    Would you consider any of the relationships portrayed in this anime as being meaningful when it comes to “love”? I guess that’s what it comes down to for me. I’m just a tad too optimistic, I suppose…..

  7. AlexS says:

    Hey, not all fiction works which deal with the absurdity of life are shallow. Also, it’s not because you don’t find meaning in their relationships, that it’s implausible that they themselves would feel otherwise(whereas in really bad works there’s no way the events can be credible).

    But really, if the characters irritate you, that you don’t identify yourself or are engaged by their problems and emotions, then it’s normal that it does not work for you.

    It’s a bit like the story of an alcoholic. You can be irritated by his incapacity to wean himself from the bottle, his constant relapses and the downwards spiral hes going through, because it’s just too foreign to your way of acting or away from your tastes, but it does not mean that the behavior of the alcoholic is meaningless. On the contrary, it is very logic, has a lot of meaning (in the sense that there are solid reasons that explain it).

    Anyway, if you’re not engaged by it, you’ll find it unwatchable, no matter the merits of the work (I think this was often the case when people viewed Wellcomme to the NHK!).

    As for myself, I also did not manage to hold on to Nana, but I can’t blame the work itself. It’s just not my taste of issues, or patterns of behaviors. I disliked Hachi, and the kind of problems she found herself in. And that’s all there is to it.

  8. Immelman says:

    Unless you’re really familiar with the music business world or the celebrity world, you can’t possibly judge if Nana is realistic or not. “Realistic” in this case just means “in accordance with what you imagine”. Hence it’s normal that some people find it realistic and some other don’t, because everyone thinks different.

    Concerning the love relations, they are indeed very complex and deeply rooted in the celebrity world. As for me, they are not realistic, but credible, and above all, very enjoyable.

    Moreover, it’s not often that we see manga heroes with drug addictions problems, prostitution problems, and early pregnancy. The characters are very well developped, and are not superficial by any means. Nana is really one of the best shoujou manga, and shoujou animes out there; I can’t think of more than 2 or 3 other shoujou animes that can rival with Nana.

  9. windy says:

    Nana is for me an outstanding series that stands out among many other classical shoujo series . The characters are depicted with a lot of realism, that’s what my first impression was. It also perfectly deals with problems of everyday life and the way everyone handles them, the characters ( especially the two protagonists) are so different and at the same time, they do need each other and are “soulmates” if I could put it that way, who were destined to meet on the train, by chance or coincidance or fate, whatever it is.

  10. Solaris says:

    Hi, can’t say much about Honey and Clover , nana and such shows cause they’re not my cup of tea. I was quite interested in your use of the term “realism”. I happen to notice that much people are inclined to associate realism with the depth of a story or its chars, that is not quite correct. So what do you think realism truly refers to?

  11. AlexS says:

    @10

    Maybe the word you’re looking for is credibility? i.e. the inner coherence of the story, that the characters behave in logic and credible ways according to their own universe (and not always to your own experience of the real world)

  12. Theowne says:

    AlexS makes some good points above that I agree with.

    @10

    This is why I’m trying to back away from the use of the word “realism”. It’s more about a basic sense of likability or sympathy with the characters. It’s very important to me, and plenty of others I’d assume, to like the characters as people, that’s what keeps me watching the anime, hoping for them to achieve what they desire.

    Realism is a more complicated concept, and I’ll say that yes, NANA realistically portrays certain kinds of relationships and people. They’re just not the kind I care about. And I would say that anyone looking for any deeper kind of love will not find it in NANA.

  13. Theowne says:

    P.S. With my celebrity gossip analogy, I also got the feeling that this was the kind of show that would be enjoyed most by the sort of audience that likes watching those American teen dramas like the O.C. or Degrassi. Do you guys disagree?

  14. Chris says:

    NANA shows superficial individuals who grow to understand that their personalities are flawed and try to change themselves, and just like real people they make mistakes and fall back into the world they try to escape, but the heartwarming growth in relationship is what really makes the show.

    I much preferred Paradise Kiss though. shorter and more realistic and extremely touching, made by the same team.

  15. Sapphire says:

    @Theowne
    “And I would say that anyone looking for any deeper kind of love will not find it in NANA.”

    Even though a “deeper kind of love” is somewhat of a relative concept, I have to disagree with you.
    *SPOILER ALERT* (for those who haven’t watched the anime)
    Wouldn’t you say Nana and Ren love each other? Years passed after their separation (which was truly heartbreaking) and they still longed for each other, time didn’t cool off their feelings at all.
    How about Nobu? I have no doubt that he was in love with Hachi, so much in love that he lost her without a fight because he believed she would be happier living with Takumi. He always put her happiness over his.
    And Yasu? He has always loved Nana, but never made his move because of his friendship with Ren. However he has always been there for her, always putting his true feelings aside.

    Hachi’s case is different though, because I don’t think she’ll ever be capable of loving someone before learning to love herself.

    Anyway, I’m pretty sure anyone can find love in NANA, as well as many different ways of dealing with it.

  16. senerikfred says:

    @Theowne, 13: I disagree, because my sister watches that kind of thing enough that I’ve seen bits, and it’s pretty bad.

    And I actually agree that it’s hardly my favorite show as a romance, but as a drama I love it. The characters are too mired in their flaws to pull off romantic love in its peaks. The relationships that interested me the most were more often those less than romantic and/or of no relation to the romance aspect, and the most interesting aspect of the romances was more often how they fell apart and what that meant for characters individually.

  17. Frost says:

    NANA is easily the most realistic romance anime out there and thus also the best… it manages to avoid most of the ecchi harem crap, and the way it presents sexual situations is great

    Thats what made me like it the most and what I usually criticize alot about romance animes, they just dont take it seriously, as if it were made for kids

    A good example is Clannad.. While Clannad is a nice series for other reasons, I find it pathetic that the main characters have a kid and we dont even see them kiss once in the whole anime… What the hell is that? It just takes away so much from the realism, it makes me feel like its a fake relationship

    Other than that, while one of the nanas is indeed superficial, thats how most people are i n the real world, so theres nothing wrong with that… and it made me hate her, which means it worked

  18. kagura says:

    @theowne

    I understand that you prefer characters from Honey & Clover and care about them more. As you said, they’re mature, itelligent and all that, so it’s actually hard not to like them. But real people aren’t always like that. And here’s where NANA comes in, portraying people that are less perfect. For me, that imperfection only makes them more human, and it definetely doesn’t make their problems any less meaningful or their love any less earnest.

    Actually, the plot of NANA revolves mostly around Hachi desperately wanting to love and be loved earnestly. Somehow, despite her flaws and failures, I sympathize with her more than, for example, with Hagu, who (SPOILERS for Honey and Clover ahead) has the perfect guy right next to her; a guy who truly loves her from the first to the last episode, whose love is as honest and pure as can be, but she doesn’t choose him, because she likes another guy, whom she doesn’t choose either, because she decides to stay with some other guy, whom she does love, only not romantically, but to whom she is grateful for all that he’d done for her (okay, I know that I’m probably oversimplifying things a little bit).

    Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love Honey & Clover and I love how it ended. If I were to write down my personal anime ranking, I’m pretty sure H&C would be higher than NANA, because I’m also a sucker for optimistic, heart-warming stories with lovable characters. But it still doesn’t mean I can’t get totally absorbed in a more dark and depressing story, where people have some real problems and not only “he/she doesn’t love me, because he/she loves someone else” like seen in H&C (yeah I know, I’m oversimplifying again).

    Other than that, I agree with everything that Sapphire said in comment #15

    And, to answer your question, no, I don’t watch American teen dramas, nor do I read celebrity gossip magazines (or even care for any of those) :P

  19. Theowne says:

    There are plenty of love-related anime that aren’t ecchi or harem related (and far better than NANA, in my opinion). And while I’ve never seen Clannad, characters don’t need to be physical all the time in order to portray a convincing love story.

  20. c160 says:

    @Saphhire,15: The examples you give are all nice and true.but don’t you think that the love between the two Nana is the deepest kind of love?Just pointing it out :)

    @Theowne,18: This is sort of SPOILER for the people who haven’t read the manga and have only watch the anime but since you obviously won’t read it,I’m gonna say it to you anyway.After the point where the 1st seaason ends,in the manga,the two Nanas sort of switch places where Nana becomes much more dependent on Hachi and becoming more and more of a trainwreck while Hachi stabilizes her life and become a stronger figure.Eventhough Hachi can’t really do anything to help the messy situations her friends and loved ones got into,tried her best not to make herself the main character of situations.Instead she tries her best to be there for friends(especially Nana) although sometimes she just can’t do it due to her other priorities(like her husband and child.And in the future scenes,her job and her children).But she still has her moments of course where we see her fickle heart takes center stage again (chapter 82-83 to be exact..) but she’s trying her best still.And to be fair,the series’ main selling point was never really the romance that the two Nana experiences but rather the relationship between the two of them..

  21. Sasa says:

    I’m waiting for maya (http://myillusion.net/itsumo/) to discover this posting, I’m sure she’ll have lots to say and I rarely see someone who gave so many insights on this manga as she did.

    So, for me, Nana is the manga that I have compared to my life for about 7 volumes or so, spanning about 3 years of my life. I have heard “Nana is totally like your life” many many times. Ever since, the characters in Nana have moved from “normal people” with financial issues to celebrities dealing with celebrity problems – that is true. But the core of what love is, I think that still remain very realistic compared to certain people’s lives; and for me it definitely is.

    Also, who says that real life is not superficial anyways, it’s not like all our relationships are so much deeper or more complicated than depicted in manga really. Sometimes relationships and people can be really simple and it’s be presumptious of us to pretend we’re more than that.

  22. Theowne says:

    I don’t think it’s presumptuous at all.

  23. AlexS says:

    @19 Theowne: Would you care to give a list of what you consider the best (realistic) love themed anime? It would be of interest for me. I guess you’ll cite stuff like “bokura ga ita”, or even “nodame cantabile” (ok, not very realistic) but what else?

  24. Solaris says:

    @11 AlexS.
    That’s right. What you wrote down is called suspension of disbelief and it helps keeping a story self coherent within its own universe.
    That’s the first rule for a well written story, but that applies to both fantastic, realistic and non realistic stories.
    Realistic stories have a basic set of rules that resembles those of the real world.
    So there’s no need to have fairly complex chars or deep plots. It’s enough that chars behave like real life chars and the plot avoid any completely fantastic event.
    Anyhow i also see how Nana’s fanboyism is taking over the thread :P I’m afraid it’d be useless to try gain some serius talk here

  25. Theowne says:

    AlexS:

    Well again, I don’t want to involve the term “realism” because it’s causing too much confusion. I think I’ve been crossing wires with people in this discussion because since the beginning I’ve just been giving my own perspective on the actual content of NANA, while others are interpreting it as an objective attack on the credibility (‘realism’) of the content. I think your alcoholic analogy has merit…

    But for love stories with characters (and therefore relationships) that I actually cared about: Maison Ikkoku and Honey and Clover are two examples. I liked Nodame Cantabile much more than NANA, though I’m also a classical music nut. For young-love type stories, Whisper of the Heart and Kare Kano are quite good. Oh, and Only Yesterday, another Ghibli film with an older cast.

    Are these characters “more realistic”? Doesn’t really matter because what’s more important is just that they’re different kind of people from those in NANA, the kind that I find more “worthwhile”, if that makes sense. So I find their love stories a lot more meaningful as a result. That’s all there is to it, from my perspective.

  26. lisa says:

    I’m going to go against the grain and side with Theowne here. I also did not feel engaged by or feel connected to the characters in Nana, though I did feel they had depth and felt like real people. As a point of comparison, Karekano is my favorite romance (though I generally dislike romances), mostly because I felt more of a connection to the main characters; years after high school and a few degrees later, their romantic interactions, working to balance their relationship and work/academics, and personal growth into more rounded people felt far more real to me than the heartache and drama in Nana.

    For the record, I actively hate a number of shoujo romantic dramas like Hana Yori Dango and can pretty much only tolerate romance if it’s comedy, or if it’s a smaller part of a bigger story. I do think Nana is at the peak of its genre, but it’s not my cuppa. I’d rather be watching, say, Saiunkoku Monogatari. \o/ Realistic? Um, no. But I identified with Shuurei and her problems much more than with anyone in Nana.

  27. c160 says:

    So at the end of the day,everyone agrees that Nana is realistic and it’s just a matter of connecting with the characters?

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Anonymous2028818
@SuperMario: Wasn't that Natsume season 5?, pretty sure season 4 was several years earlier.
SuperMario
Another strong anime season for me was 2015 Winter, where we had YuriKuma Arashi, Maria the Virgin Witch, Death Parade, Durarara whatever season, second cour of Shirobako, Parasyte and Your Lie in April
SuperMario
Even so, with this season I'm still willing to give some shows another chance, like Caligula or Cutie Honey Universe(!)
SuperMario
For me, the best season in recent years was Fall 2016 when we had Flip Flappers, Sound Eupho 2, Yuri on Ice, Natsume 4, Fune wo Amu, Drifters and 3-gatsu no Lion. But I know that Aidan would disagree with me on this
SuperMario
@anon2028201: it's me who said this season is a mixed bag. It's like you said, this season is too heavily on sequels/ reboots and only some new anime stand out, the rest of the pack is just meh.
Anonymous2028201
To me this seems like a pretty good seasons, but judging some of the impressions, it's a bit more of a mixed bag for most. Just curious, what were the best seasons for recent anime? This one seems good to me, but to early to tell right now
Anonymous2028201
Lovin this season so far: a lot of reboots/reimaginings and sequels, but I'm enjoying them all. MHA S3, LOGH DNT, S;G 0, Megalobox, Golden Kamuy are what I'm watching right now. I hear Full Metal Panic is good as well, but I haven't gotten around to watching the original series.
Anonymous2028258
so i just recently rewatched fullmetal panic fumoffu and i gotta say that this is easily one of Kyo ani's best works. It's such a surprise that this was their first anime; it's a damn good romance comedy
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Lol I love B-movie type stuff, because the rules are off.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I was the only person who watched Mazinkaiser skl and shin mazinger and skullman.
Anonymous2026379
@Kaiser Takeshi Koike really wanted to really sell it as a grindhouse feature and I ate that shit up; I really dug the tone he was going for.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: It was strange seeing that Goemon short, much as I enjoyed it, thats the goriest I seen lupin get.
Anonymous2026379
Megalo box is pure retro while lupin is a mix of old and new...and you're right; people just think they can't jump right into it. But that's why more people should be talking about it; to let the masses know that you don't need a starting point to get into the Lupin franchise
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm a massive fan of the devilman manga and I thought devilman crybaby was better than it.
Anonymous2026379
90's-esque throwback feeling shows like lupin and megalo box have been giving me
Anonymous2026379
Luoin part 5 is definitely mixing the best of new and old. Honestly, I've been having a blast with it as well as this generally 90
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think the problem is, people see lupin as this long thing they can't get into, when really its so episodic/standalone mostly you can pick up and watch.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And of course getting the best bits out of old and new.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*visual style
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm a fan of this hybrid old and new style, megalobox does it too, mine fujiko aswell and casshern sins.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I was surprised by how well the Fujiko mine show came together in the end.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'll be interested in picking up more facts about thrm.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Come think of it, Akira Kurosawa did some old western (eastern?) in Russian, that had an Ainu in it.
Anonymous2026379
Asirpa is sooooo adorable.....almost feels patronizing to say that about her due to how badass she is
Anonymous2026379
What makes Fujiko work so well as this sexy icon is that she isn't just sexy: she's smart as shit and uses that sexiness to dominate and control her opponents (similar to bayonetta) rather than be chained by the objectification of her opponents (and the viewers for that matter)
Anonymous2026379
I wonder what other obscure cameos we may get this season. And yea you're right about some of Lupin's potentially sexist traits being assuaged by his level of cool and the genuine respect he shows a good deal of the women he has encountered throughout the series
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Yet still a fun film at the same time.
Anonymous2026379
@Kaiser Yea, mamo was a pretty dark element introduced to the lupin franchise; and considering the tone of the gravestone of Jigen, it makes sense he would cameo there
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@Mario: Help I want to kidnap Asirpa =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I'm probably as surprised as you, at finding someone to talk to about Lupin on here.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: And through comparing/contrasting the jigen grave stone and Fujiko mine, with some of the sillier older ones, it shows the Lupin characters are flexible enough to work both in a darker AND sillier context.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*character
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Fujiko is precisely how a fanservicey character should work and how built in/essential it is to her haracter, without becoming an irritant.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: By all means Lupin himself shouldn't be a character we like, much like Bond, but like Bond theres a coolness to the character that allows us to love him.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Another great thing about Lupin is how it uses its 60s cool to get away with what would normally probably be considered fairly sexist.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I had a big smile on my face when Mamo made a cameo appearance at the end of one of the recent ones and thats because I remember the Lupin Mamo movie was one of those first anime that I watched about 20 years aago.
Anonymous2026379
not to mention that its one of the few anime this season that actually knows how to utilize dialogue to explore flesh out its characters rather than exposition or contrivance: looking at you darling in the franxx
Anonymous2026379
@Kaiser-Eoghan Nice fun facts; but yea Lupin III is a series that has always had an amazing sense of pacing and adventure, traits that are definitely on display this season
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Its a huge franchise too so I'm often never sure where to go next.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: You may or may not know this, but the voice actor for solid snake voiced Lupin in one of the dubs.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I watched a few episodes of the Italy set lupin show too .
Its a fun franchise due to its cast but its something I have to follow irregularly, lest it get repetitive.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Fun fact, guy who directed the gold of babylon film was a famous B-movie noir director in the 60s.
Lenlo
Dont trust anything written by the original SAO author. Everything is his fault. Kirito is not in this series.
Lenlo
Even the original SAO author has little to do with it, which is why its actually good
Lenlo
So SAO Alt is basically completely removed from the rest of SAO
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Lupin is one of those things I dip in and out of, whatever part of the franchise it is. I've seen birdcage kingdom, Mamo, cagliostro, nostradamus, Jigens grave stone, mine fujiko and the recent Goemon centred special.
Anonymous2026379
it's a damn shame not a lot of ppl are talkig about/watching lupin the third this season
Kaiser-Eoghan
But for all I know with that team behind it, its an improvement, but theres probably not much point in me watching as I dropped the first season after less than 10 episodes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
See how he attempts to seduce me into watching something related to sword art.
Lenlo
Huh... I didnt know the writer for SAO Alt was written by the Kino's Journey creator and produced by the Flip Flappers people. Explains a lot
Lenlo
I wish I knew what you meant by shaman girls, and I cant wait
AidanAK47
@Lenlo, Oh I know Leskinen. May he find his Japanese Shaman girls one day. But seeing as I know the story I wanna experience it differently.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Its even set in hokkaido, Korean/Japanese director, Japanese cast, Ken Watanabe is in it: https://letterboxd.com/film/unforgiven-2013/
Lenlo
Also, I love the ED. Really, 2 episodes in, I love S;G all over again.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: really? They remade Unforgiven in Japanese?
Lenlo
its*
Lenlo
Like... is good.
Lenlo
But your missing out on the cult of Leskinen. The engrish is actually one of my favorite parts
AidanAK47
@Lenlo, Meanwhile I am happily waiting for the dub.
Lenlo
Dangit... I have to wait another week for Steins;Gate 0 now. I cant do this.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: The Japanese remake of unforgiven had ainu people in it.
Anonymous2025797
Also I wonder if budget is distributed according to the director, some animes will spend more in the first episode. Some will spend more in the last ones. It's subjective, but if it's like all business it is looking for the better result at the minimum expense. Hence why I believe Berserk was made the way it did.
Anonymous2025797
@Kaiser-Eoghan - Ideally a story should be as long as it needs. But reality seems that a number of episodes is decided before production. And so you either have to stretch or cut material. Kinda like that 300 page manga of Les Miserables, is simply unfeasible translating that book into that few pages.
KTravlos
Oberstein was a great character.
KTravlos
I actually feel Aidan can do a good job on it. Sometimes been too exposed to the material may lead to clouded eyes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Though I'm surprised by how I unexpectedly laughed at wotaku, I do wonder if later on it will include any slight drama elements to sustain interest.
Kaiser-Eoghan
OMO; OBERsteins; Gate =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
From watching episode 2 of golden kamuy, yeah, the source material definitely is lifting this.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm going to have to wait and see on steins; gate 0, it is encouraging to here this might be darker , at the same time I remember having to sit through too much goofy humour in the first one.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I was actually surprised, that, while rare, there were some moments of humour, that lightened it for me.
AidanAK47
Throughout the entire series I expected Oberstein to pull some inevitable double cross. And was shocked when he never did.
Amagi
@Kaiser: Agree with Oberstein. I think antagonists are es important as the mains in fiction and I loved this guy, he's perfect for series like these.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Galactic heroes was an example of where when watching it, when big death scenes occured, I would make noooooo and shouting noises at the screen while clenching my fist.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I love characters like Oberstein, shrewd, clever, but done right to where I can believe it, not characters like, say Lelouch .
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'd be concerned if the new galactic heroes series skimps on the violence, that kind of thing needs to be in there, in most shows/films and shown to be explicit, consequences need to be shown.
Amagi
*about, not with
Amagi
Sadly, most original 2+ cours series I know feel dragged whereas many 1 cours originals could have needed ~3 more episodes. Talking with series that have an actual plot of course.
Amagi
I really like the 13 episodes thingy for originals but I wish there would be more 26 episodes series, especially for adaptions.
Amagi
@Kaiser: I agree. Nothing kills my interest faster than formularic episodes and repetition.
Kaiser-Eoghan
In general I think 50 episodes would be the most I'd watch for an anime, 39 seems ideal.
Amagi
Or worse and the romance drama is the main plot and it's Kiznaiver all over again, while the rest is just flavor to make the romances more forced since they're the MCs are only teens and such. Dunno but I can never bring myself to care about this kind of stuff.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Though better 110 episodes of galactic heroes than a long shounen that just repeats itself.
Amagi
Speaking of recent episodes, I unironically thing that FranXX's world (building) is pretty interesting (although I hope those klaxxosaurusses will be more than just random cannon fodder) but I doubt the series will ever get to the main plot again the next time.
Amagi
Same here. It was really the only time I did this. I am usually exhausted by just thinking about marathoning long series. It's the reason why I won't get into FMP for the new series either. LotGH was an exception since I found it easily to watch for some reason.
SuperMario
Man, just image burning through 110 episodes of it and my spirit fades away
Amagi
Watched that whole series ages ago.
Amagi
Just watched the first three Neue These episodes and I surprinsingly liked it. Thought I would hate it due to being an OVA fan, and I still prefer the old designs by far but overall it's pretty good. I think I might even prefer this version of the first battle, but I have to rewatch the old one I guess.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Also while I can't remember which episode, Yang picks up a book with the author of the series' name on it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Arslan feels so lightweight by contrast/comparison.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And I think, given your knowledge KTtravlos, that a series review of the new galactic heroes season would probably benefit from you writing it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I bring up the music in my earlier comment, because I can understand your reservations regarding the music choice in the remake.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And certainly one of those shows, that going back to the first episode after finishing, gives a strong perspective just on how evolving the series was.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*despite me not
Kaiser-Eoghan
Despite not being monarchist , because the characters were human moreso than cartoon characters I couldn't hate on Reinhard.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Travlos: I suppose by the time it got to Julian's arc, I was surprised they were still bothering to fight but the fact that they were essentially the last bastion of their beliefs made it special.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Travlos: Sometimes when I just finish a show, its a case where I HAVE to jump online immediately after and excitedly ramble out an essay on it.
niello
ugh democracy
KTravlos
@Kaiser ultimately LOGH for me was a decisive point in my political life, as I think it made the best defense of democracy in any form I have seen. And it worked partly because the opponent was presented in the best possible incarnation (Rienhard). Yang's continued adherence to democracy, despite recongising its flaws, helped me avoid a personal descent into authoritarian politics.
KTravlos
@Kaiser. I am happy you had a good experience. I watched the prequels a while after the main show and I was happy because it was great getting back to those characters. The prequels were also great in fleshing the setting and the characters. So yes, take your time and a break. That way the prequels will be like visiting a place you liked again after a while.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@KTtravlos: I have some other stuff to get through before watching the galactic heroes prequel though =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
YES according to discord poster I'm not a millenial!
Kaiser-Eoghan
Sorry for overposting. I have always always being an incredibly verbose person.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Vonter; Not that I oppose captilistically made for a buck cinema, it can be entertaining yes, but I set a standard.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Vonter: As open as I am to trash cinema, I consider the resident evil films, like the superhero ones, anti-art.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I can understand why people don't like Villier, but he did I think work as a device to add extra tension.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I feel some release at finishing but at the same time sadness at saying goodbye to the show and its characters.
Kaiser-Eoghan
, showing its age.
But for something of this length, it kept itself up far better than most long shows and I feel the length its somewhat justified.

On another note….as corny as the third ending theme is, I got the feels listening to it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But while the first 50 odd episodes were an easy job for me aswell as all of the 4th season and some of the late 3rd season made it difficult for me to pull myself away from it, the dialogue even though often well observed did become difficult to follow at times and somewhere in the middle theres a stretch of episodes, bar some moments that feel a bit of an endurance test and the animation is at
Kaiser-Eoghan
Its attention to detail I felt was at its strongest in the documentary and the series dedication to filling the view in on its world building/fictional history.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I admired the scope, ambition of this series and the battles eventually grew on me and I was surprised by just how visceral the melee combat got which suited me perfectly. At the same time for all the strategy and action, I found myself more in it for the story, characters and intrigue/politicking. Those battles, due in part to their music choices, had an epic feel to them
Kaiser-Eoghan
In the end the characters stood out for me the best were Reinhard, Oberstein (for being essentially the amazing man with the plan), Reuntal, Kircheis and Rubinsky, I warmed up to Julian, Yang and Schenkop. When important deaths occurred, they felt highly dramatic, in four cases emotionally effecting for me .
Kaiser-Eoghan
Also, KTtravlos, thank you for pushing me toward watching the original legend of the galactic heroes, my opinion on the series is largely a mixed one, but by the end I felt I’d watched something rewarding and I’m happy its crossed off my list and I should have gotten round to it sooner.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm probably the oldest here, being 32. Which apparently makes me around Yang-wenli's age, which according to someone means I'm middle aged .
Kaiser-Eoghan
To the discord guy who brought it up, its difficult not for me to be political, my father was an activist and is a Marxist , I ended up becoming a contradiction a semi-agnostic, but spiritually inclined/tolerant socialist with internationalist ideology.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Ends in very cliffhanger/abrupt indy way though and the things weakness/how to kill thems too easy.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: I liked how it explains nothing also and the creature design and how it visual communicates to the audience.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: While I won't say anything, a character death is handled in what I considered a schmaltzy manner. There is a particularly headscratching decision the characters make that you'll either rationalize or hate, but it leads to one of the tenser set pieces later on.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Quiet place has a good idea at its backbone, that they use sign language in the film to communicate and occassional whispers adds to it, it and the silence allows for a mood to be effectively communicated. It does have jump scares, I wasn't annoyed by them, but I never felt the film required them.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: I read the discord, if you ever need to ask a question relating to film, come to me about it, I will without fail be able to answer 9 times out of 10.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I was adequately amused by the first episode of wotaku, but found the male lead funnier, which I'm attributing to him be more deadpan.
Lenlo
We found a convient weekend for everyone
Kaiser-Eoghan
*watching
Kaiser-Eoghan
I would also float the idea of recommendation podcasts every now and then.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I will listen to the podcast more in full later. But I was surprised after asking/suggesting it on the discord, that it came so soon.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I am thinking of re-watching gasaraki and ai yori aoshi.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Niello: Perhaps after a while of watch the anime I will simply jump on to the manga.
Vonter
I watched Resident Evil: Vendetta yesterday. It's incredible dumb but kind of fun. I do wonder if in terms of entertainment are like the best videogame based movies. Since it plays like a videogame, it's based on a videogame and is more or less in line with the tone the series has had for a while.
niello
It's such a shame that Golden Kamuy art direction is such a train wreck.
KTravlos
and for the sake of Clausewitz there is clinical term for what Reinhard did. It is called "defeat in detail". Napoleon was a master of it. Proper way to defeat it , is to order the threatened force to retreat to a point where other allied forces are converging. The enemy will either have to retreat, or fight at a disadvantage. The 1813 and 1814 campaigns against Napoleon are examples of that.
KTravlos
Episode 2 of LOGGH: Der Neue Thesis was much better than the first. The music is still an issue, but Yang was well portrayed. I do think there is lack of the directors in showing the cruelty of war, like the first one did. We will see.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Still need to see his short films and black Peter.
Amagi
@Anon: I already know the manga and enjoy it, think the anime is a good adaption so far. Feels good to see a series about video games that are actually just games and romance without tsunderes, tons of blushing or unworldly naive harem girls.
Anonymous2016456
the anime
Anonymous2016456
how do you guys think of wotakoi?
SuperMario
@Kaiser: Hereditary sounds pretty promising here
Kaiser-Eoghan
Forman's an interesting case, when you look at the huge disconnect from his early films from the 60s and then what he went on to make.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Ah, unfortunately I am not a fan of country music so Nashville didn't appeal to me =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: And before Jack kept playing the same role over and over.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Aside from Courtney Love's presence, Larry Flynt is an excellent film. I love the custom camera tricks Kubrick used in Lyndon , dog day afternoon suceeded for me because it did so much more than being just a bank rob film. I wish Spielberg would return to his pre-90s films .
SuperMario
Cuckoo's Nest reminds me of the great 1975 Oscar Best Picture, which for me was Oscar's greatest line-up. The line-ups for that year were: Cuckoo Nest (winner), Nashville, Barry Landon, Dog Day Afternoon and Jaws
SuperMario
@Kaiser: RIP the man. I've seen 2 of his, Amadeus and Cuckoo Nest. Both great but they were more because of the strength of the source
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Milos forman has died =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
Indeed the character designs in steins; gate have seen changes....shockingly mayuri's chest is larger than Daru's ;)
KTravlos
I can live with that. Interested to see what made you reserved.
SuperMario
@KTravlos: you won't agree with my series review then. I have a lot of reservations on VE
KTravlos
Also I finished Violet Evergarden. This was an exceptional series in my book.
KTravlos
the two characters. Finally the battle soundtrack was simply wrong.

I am going to watch it because it is LOGH. And frankly after watching the new one I felt the fact that the old one was dated technical wise (but not in music). But at least on comparison of first episodes, the old one did a better job at giving depth to Reinhard and Keircheis.
KTravlos
well I watched the first episode of the new LOGH and then watched the first episode of the older version. The update in the art is good..but. If the old one was too talky, this one is too boom boom. I also felt that they did not sue the time well to establish Reihard and Kircheis well. Especially the removal of some lines that were in the first episode of the original, really took away a lot from
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