Posted by psgels on 25 August 2009 with categories: Shoutbox Topics

One of the downsides of this site is that sometimes discussions erupt in the shoutbox that go way beyond its capacity. At the moment, I really don’t have a clear-cut solution for this. The cbox utility really is the best free type of shoutbox that I could find. I’m open for suggestions, though.

Anyway, the least thing I can do is create a proper post for it. I personally haven’t seen the Nana so I can’t exactly comment on it, but there have been plenty of readers with some interesting thoughts on the subject. Opio for example claims:

“Mhmm yea, I’d have to say NANA is the most realistic/engaging shoujo I’ve ever watched. I’ve watched the season like 3 times and following the manga currently. I just really felt the realtionships were so realistic and the way the characters acted were amazin”

On the contrary, Theowne wasn’t impressed:

“Didn’t get too far with NANA, just seemed like superficial characters having superficial relationships. I’ll pass.”

“Meh, it’s a matter of your attitude or personality. Me, I just didn’t care about any of the NANA characters. Complete opposite of Honey and Clover.”

Sappire adds:

“One of the Nanas is indeed superficial, but so are many people in real life. I think NANA does a realistic portrait of people’s feelings and fears, it’s definitely worth a watch.”

senerikfred also liked the realism in Nana:

“I’m with Opio-NNANA’s characters are engagingly realistic. Hachi ended up as one of my favorite characters all-time. She’s shallow for sure, but not an idiot or malicious.”

“Gack. I don’t usually watch stuff as predictable as NANA, but what I like about it is that there aren’t dramatic twists left and right, and it’s so meticuous in fleshing out the characters that more often than not, you know exactly what’s going to happen. It’s made clear exactly what everyone’s reasons are. And damn, DERP isn’t everything there is to like.”

But Theowne notes:

“I’m sure its realistic.=) It’s similar to why I don’t read “realistic” celebrity gossip. I just don’t care about these superficial soap-operas of such characters, and so it felt emotionally hollow. And remember, this is all just my own honest reaction, different people will interpret it their own way. I’m not saying I’m right and you’re wrong. =)”

I know I missed a number of posts, but this seems to be the gist of it. Now, go ahead with your discussion without those nasty limitations of that shoutbox. ;)

27 Responses

  1. AlexS says:

    Looks to me like there is a consensus about Nana being more realistic than the average shoujo.

    The discussion seems more to be whether the characters themselves are engaging or not, but that’s a very different question.

  2. Julian says:

    Nana And BECK are simply just superior to NaNa -_-, NaNa is just overly dark…which doesn’t suit many ppl.

  3. senerikfred says:

    . . .I should’ve mentioned that I wasn’t implying you should do this, but hey, this works too.

    First off, that NANA is realistic is something most of us already agreed on. Theowne is the only one to dispute liking it in the first place, and he stated that it was a matter of personal taste.
    Can’t exactly deny NANA’s similarity to celebrity gossip, because the story is EXACTLY the kind of ‘scandalous’ thing that would go down as a celebrity legend IRL, at least partly because it does center around two bands, one of whom is already extremely popular where the series starts.
    But I don’t think that it’s superficial. Even Hachi herself, I don’t find superficial, at least once she’s developed. As opposed to the typical shoujo heroine who starts a twit, gets thrown into an unbelievable situation, stays a twit, and lives happily ever after for her trouble, Hachi lives a normal life, pursues whims of romanticism, never learns to be self-sufficient, develops self-destructive habits, and by the time her stresses force her to be more self-conscious, she’s tangled up in issues that she’s much too weak a person to handle. Her feelings are genuine, and she understands that she’s headed in the wrong direction. As much as she hates herself, she’s very aware that she’s ill-equipped to fix anything, and is left constantly regretful. She’s a hell of an interesting character. Usually, such dependent girls are simply depicted as being the useless bitch on the side who ruins things for everyone for no reason. Every character is treated similarly-they try to do what they think is a good idea to do, but what they choose and what they believe to be ‘good’ in the first place varies widely, each with their own flaws. Even characters who get less than ten minutes of screentime are shown to have their own reasons. Like Julian said, the darkness of the whole thing just isn’t everyone’s cup of tea.

  4. kagura says:

    Every time I see a comment saying that characters in Nana are superficial, I start to wonder if we’ve really seen the same anime. For me, it’d be hard to find another series that had me so engaged in its characters and their problems as Nana did.

    As for the main character of the story, I just can’t see Hachi as superficial. Sure, I agree she is a flawed character, somewhat naive, or even shallow at times, but that’s what makes her real to me. I couldn’t help but cheer her on throughout the whole series, want the best for her, cry at her failures… even though I knew she herself was the reason of all her problems, since most of the choices she made were totally wrong and she was just the type to bring disasters on herself… but to say she was superficial? Hell no. I’m sure it would be impossible for me to get so worked up over some superficial characters.

    Nana is definetely one of the best and most engaging anime series I’ve ever seen, even though emotionally it left me feeling as if run over by a truck or something (I’ve cried a lot of tears while watching it, which was strange even for me). And oh, while Paradise Kiss was a total disaster for me, Nana, on the contrary, is the best example of how Yazawa Ai’s manga should be adapted into anime.

    And somehow I don’t really see much sense in comparing Nana to Honey & Clover. While both those series deal with young people trying to find their place in the world, they’re just too different from each other, and not comparable, at least in my book. H&C had similarily strong impact on me, but the feelings it left me with were totally different.

    Sorry, if the comment was more emotional on my part than constructive, but Nana left too big of an impression on me to be able to just talk about it calmly.

    And it was a great idea to actually make a topic of this on the blog. I couldn’t have expressed all that I wanted to in the shoutbox :)

  5. c160 says:

    First of all,Nana,for me,is as realistic as far as manga and anime goes.But of course people may answer differently to it,though for me,the two Nanas hits especially close to home cause I know people who thinks almost on the same line as them.From Hachi/Nana Komatsu’s fickle,shallow self,whom never seem to learn from her mistakes and Nana Osaki trust problems.

    I went into the series because it promises not the usual shoujo formula of girl meets boy,they fall in love,show their hardships as they try to reach their happy end which usually comes in the form of marriage.I’m bored,tired and a bit sick with that formula already.Its just not realistic,that happy-ever-after-marriage ending.Life is not all about trying to reach that happy end which comes in the form of marriage which most shoujo stories ends up showing you know.Instead,NANA is about a story of two girls,and the challenges they face and how they become each other’s most important person.And it’s shown in a very realistic way too.The problems they face,loneliness,trust problems,famliy problems,money problems,and all sort of other real problems that real people face.Not just the usual “do you love her or do you love me” question.

    Of course,for complete character development,we’ll need to see a 2nd season..And it’s better be animated in all Mouryo no Hako quality or higher too :)

  6. Theowne says:

    Well, look, I’ll declare easily that my opinion is a very personal one. I won’t make objective statements on the quality of the writing or development, just give an opinion from one kind of anime fan.

    You guys keep misunderstanding my use of “superficial”. I’m not saying the anime itself is thin in its portrayals or that it isn’t well done, I’m saying that I find the characters themselves, as people, to be superficial people and thus I didn’t care about them or their relationships. I’m not saying it isn’t realistic, I know that there’s plenty of people like this in reality, and this anime is an honest portrayal of them. But at the same time, I think there are a lot of people like me who like earnest love stories that seem meaningful. The romance in NANA just doesn’t seem that way to me with its soap-opera-ish patterns. I stand by my comparison with celebrity gossip.

    I compare it to Honey and Clover because IMO that show has a similar kind of genre to NANA (young adults finding themselves), but the characters in that one are the kind of people I can actually grow to care about – intelligent, mature, thoughtful. And so their relationships feel so much more significant to me, I became more invested than I ever did with the soap opera of Hachi’s life.

    Would you consider any of the relationships portrayed in this anime as being meaningful when it comes to “love”? I guess that’s what it comes down to for me. I’m just a tad too optimistic, I suppose…..

  7. AlexS says:

    Hey, not all fiction works which deal with the absurdity of life are shallow. Also, it’s not because you don’t find meaning in their relationships, that it’s implausible that they themselves would feel otherwise(whereas in really bad works there’s no way the events can be credible).

    But really, if the characters irritate you, that you don’t identify yourself or are engaged by their problems and emotions, then it’s normal that it does not work for you.

    It’s a bit like the story of an alcoholic. You can be irritated by his incapacity to wean himself from the bottle, his constant relapses and the downwards spiral hes going through, because it’s just too foreign to your way of acting or away from your tastes, but it does not mean that the behavior of the alcoholic is meaningless. On the contrary, it is very logic, has a lot of meaning (in the sense that there are solid reasons that explain it).

    Anyway, if you’re not engaged by it, you’ll find it unwatchable, no matter the merits of the work (I think this was often the case when people viewed Wellcomme to the NHK!).

    As for myself, I also did not manage to hold on to Nana, but I can’t blame the work itself. It’s just not my taste of issues, or patterns of behaviors. I disliked Hachi, and the kind of problems she found herself in. And that’s all there is to it.

  8. Immelman says:

    Unless you’re really familiar with the music business world or the celebrity world, you can’t possibly judge if Nana is realistic or not. “Realistic” in this case just means “in accordance with what you imagine”. Hence it’s normal that some people find it realistic and some other don’t, because everyone thinks different.

    Concerning the love relations, they are indeed very complex and deeply rooted in the celebrity world. As for me, they are not realistic, but credible, and above all, very enjoyable.

    Moreover, it’s not often that we see manga heroes with drug addictions problems, prostitution problems, and early pregnancy. The characters are very well developped, and are not superficial by any means. Nana is really one of the best shoujou manga, and shoujou animes out there; I can’t think of more than 2 or 3 other shoujou animes that can rival with Nana.

  9. windy says:

    Nana is for me an outstanding series that stands out among many other classical shoujo series . The characters are depicted with a lot of realism, that’s what my first impression was. It also perfectly deals with problems of everyday life and the way everyone handles them, the characters ( especially the two protagonists) are so different and at the same time, they do need each other and are “soulmates” if I could put it that way, who were destined to meet on the train, by chance or coincidance or fate, whatever it is.

  10. Solaris says:

    Hi, can’t say much about Honey and Clover , nana and such shows cause they’re not my cup of tea. I was quite interested in your use of the term “realism”. I happen to notice that much people are inclined to associate realism with the depth of a story or its chars, that is not quite correct. So what do you think realism truly refers to?

  11. AlexS says:

    @10

    Maybe the word you’re looking for is credibility? i.e. the inner coherence of the story, that the characters behave in logic and credible ways according to their own universe (and not always to your own experience of the real world)

  12. Theowne says:

    AlexS makes some good points above that I agree with.

    @10

    This is why I’m trying to back away from the use of the word “realism”. It’s more about a basic sense of likability or sympathy with the characters. It’s very important to me, and plenty of others I’d assume, to like the characters as people, that’s what keeps me watching the anime, hoping for them to achieve what they desire.

    Realism is a more complicated concept, and I’ll say that yes, NANA realistically portrays certain kinds of relationships and people. They’re just not the kind I care about. And I would say that anyone looking for any deeper kind of love will not find it in NANA.

  13. Theowne says:

    P.S. With my celebrity gossip analogy, I also got the feeling that this was the kind of show that would be enjoyed most by the sort of audience that likes watching those American teen dramas like the O.C. or Degrassi. Do you guys disagree?

  14. Chris says:

    NANA shows superficial individuals who grow to understand that their personalities are flawed and try to change themselves, and just like real people they make mistakes and fall back into the world they try to escape, but the heartwarming growth in relationship is what really makes the show.

    I much preferred Paradise Kiss though. shorter and more realistic and extremely touching, made by the same team.

  15. Sapphire says:

    @Theowne
    “And I would say that anyone looking for any deeper kind of love will not find it in NANA.”

    Even though a “deeper kind of love” is somewhat of a relative concept, I have to disagree with you.
    *SPOILER ALERT* (for those who haven’t watched the anime)
    Wouldn’t you say Nana and Ren love each other? Years passed after their separation (which was truly heartbreaking) and they still longed for each other, time didn’t cool off their feelings at all.
    How about Nobu? I have no doubt that he was in love with Hachi, so much in love that he lost her without a fight because he believed she would be happier living with Takumi. He always put her happiness over his.
    And Yasu? He has always loved Nana, but never made his move because of his friendship with Ren. However he has always been there for her, always putting his true feelings aside.

    Hachi’s case is different though, because I don’t think she’ll ever be capable of loving someone before learning to love herself.

    Anyway, I’m pretty sure anyone can find love in NANA, as well as many different ways of dealing with it.

  16. senerikfred says:

    @Theowne, 13: I disagree, because my sister watches that kind of thing enough that I’ve seen bits, and it’s pretty bad.

    And I actually agree that it’s hardly my favorite show as a romance, but as a drama I love it. The characters are too mired in their flaws to pull off romantic love in its peaks. The relationships that interested me the most were more often those less than romantic and/or of no relation to the romance aspect, and the most interesting aspect of the romances was more often how they fell apart and what that meant for characters individually.

  17. Frost says:

    NANA is easily the most realistic romance anime out there and thus also the best… it manages to avoid most of the ecchi harem crap, and the way it presents sexual situations is great

    Thats what made me like it the most and what I usually criticize alot about romance animes, they just dont take it seriously, as if it were made for kids

    A good example is Clannad.. While Clannad is a nice series for other reasons, I find it pathetic that the main characters have a kid and we dont even see them kiss once in the whole anime… What the hell is that? It just takes away so much from the realism, it makes me feel like its a fake relationship

    Other than that, while one of the nanas is indeed superficial, thats how most people are i n the real world, so theres nothing wrong with that… and it made me hate her, which means it worked

  18. kagura says:

    @theowne

    I understand that you prefer characters from Honey & Clover and care about them more. As you said, they’re mature, itelligent and all that, so it’s actually hard not to like them. But real people aren’t always like that. And here’s where NANA comes in, portraying people that are less perfect. For me, that imperfection only makes them more human, and it definetely doesn’t make their problems any less meaningful or their love any less earnest.

    Actually, the plot of NANA revolves mostly around Hachi desperately wanting to love and be loved earnestly. Somehow, despite her flaws and failures, I sympathize with her more than, for example, with Hagu, who (SPOILERS for Honey and Clover ahead) has the perfect guy right next to her; a guy who truly loves her from the first to the last episode, whose love is as honest and pure as can be, but she doesn’t choose him, because she likes another guy, whom she doesn’t choose either, because she decides to stay with some other guy, whom she does love, only not romantically, but to whom she is grateful for all that he’d done for her (okay, I know that I’m probably oversimplifying things a little bit).

    Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love Honey & Clover and I love how it ended. If I were to write down my personal anime ranking, I’m pretty sure H&C would be higher than NANA, because I’m also a sucker for optimistic, heart-warming stories with lovable characters. But it still doesn’t mean I can’t get totally absorbed in a more dark and depressing story, where people have some real problems and not only “he/she doesn’t love me, because he/she loves someone else” like seen in H&C (yeah I know, I’m oversimplifying again).

    Other than that, I agree with everything that Sapphire said in comment #15

    And, to answer your question, no, I don’t watch American teen dramas, nor do I read celebrity gossip magazines (or even care for any of those) :P

  19. Theowne says:

    There are plenty of love-related anime that aren’t ecchi or harem related (and far better than NANA, in my opinion). And while I’ve never seen Clannad, characters don’t need to be physical all the time in order to portray a convincing love story.

  20. c160 says:

    @Saphhire,15: The examples you give are all nice and true.but don’t you think that the love between the two Nana is the deepest kind of love?Just pointing it out :)

    @Theowne,18: This is sort of SPOILER for the people who haven’t read the manga and have only watch the anime but since you obviously won’t read it,I’m gonna say it to you anyway.After the point where the 1st seaason ends,in the manga,the two Nanas sort of switch places where Nana becomes much more dependent on Hachi and becoming more and more of a trainwreck while Hachi stabilizes her life and become a stronger figure.Eventhough Hachi can’t really do anything to help the messy situations her friends and loved ones got into,tried her best not to make herself the main character of situations.Instead she tries her best to be there for friends(especially Nana) although sometimes she just can’t do it due to her other priorities(like her husband and child.And in the future scenes,her job and her children).But she still has her moments of course where we see her fickle heart takes center stage again (chapter 82-83 to be exact..) but she’s trying her best still.And to be fair,the series’ main selling point was never really the romance that the two Nana experiences but rather the relationship between the two of them..

  21. Sasa says:

    I’m waiting for maya (http://myillusion.net/itsumo/) to discover this posting, I’m sure she’ll have lots to say and I rarely see someone who gave so many insights on this manga as she did.

    So, for me, Nana is the manga that I have compared to my life for about 7 volumes or so, spanning about 3 years of my life. I have heard “Nana is totally like your life” many many times. Ever since, the characters in Nana have moved from “normal people” with financial issues to celebrities dealing with celebrity problems – that is true. But the core of what love is, I think that still remain very realistic compared to certain people’s lives; and for me it definitely is.

    Also, who says that real life is not superficial anyways, it’s not like all our relationships are so much deeper or more complicated than depicted in manga really. Sometimes relationships and people can be really simple and it’s be presumptious of us to pretend we’re more than that.

  22. Theowne says:

    I don’t think it’s presumptuous at all.

  23. AlexS says:

    @19 Theowne: Would you care to give a list of what you consider the best (realistic) love themed anime? It would be of interest for me. I guess you’ll cite stuff like “bokura ga ita”, or even “nodame cantabile” (ok, not very realistic) but what else?

  24. Solaris says:

    @11 AlexS.
    That’s right. What you wrote down is called suspension of disbelief and it helps keeping a story self coherent within its own universe.
    That’s the first rule for a well written story, but that applies to both fantastic, realistic and non realistic stories.
    Realistic stories have a basic set of rules that resembles those of the real world.
    So there’s no need to have fairly complex chars or deep plots. It’s enough that chars behave like real life chars and the plot avoid any completely fantastic event.
    Anyhow i also see how Nana’s fanboyism is taking over the thread :P I’m afraid it’d be useless to try gain some serius talk here

  25. Theowne says:

    AlexS:

    Well again, I don’t want to involve the term “realism” because it’s causing too much confusion. I think I’ve been crossing wires with people in this discussion because since the beginning I’ve just been giving my own perspective on the actual content of NANA, while others are interpreting it as an objective attack on the credibility (‘realism’) of the content. I think your alcoholic analogy has merit…

    But for love stories with characters (and therefore relationships) that I actually cared about: Maison Ikkoku and Honey and Clover are two examples. I liked Nodame Cantabile much more than NANA, though I’m also a classical music nut. For young-love type stories, Whisper of the Heart and Kare Kano are quite good. Oh, and Only Yesterday, another Ghibli film with an older cast.

    Are these characters “more realistic”? Doesn’t really matter because what’s more important is just that they’re different kind of people from those in NANA, the kind that I find more “worthwhile”, if that makes sense. So I find their love stories a lot more meaningful as a result. That’s all there is to it, from my perspective.

  26. lisa says:

    I’m going to go against the grain and side with Theowne here. I also did not feel engaged by or feel connected to the characters in Nana, though I did feel they had depth and felt like real people. As a point of comparison, Karekano is my favorite romance (though I generally dislike romances), mostly because I felt more of a connection to the main characters; years after high school and a few degrees later, their romantic interactions, working to balance their relationship and work/academics, and personal growth into more rounded people felt far more real to me than the heartache and drama in Nana.

    For the record, I actively hate a number of shoujo romantic dramas like Hana Yori Dango and can pretty much only tolerate romance if it’s comedy, or if it’s a smaller part of a bigger story. I do think Nana is at the peak of its genre, but it’s not my cuppa. I’d rather be watching, say, Saiunkoku Monogatari. \o/ Realistic? Um, no. But I identified with Shuurei and her problems much more than with anyone in Nana.

  27. c160 says:

    So at the end of the day,everyone agrees that Nana is realistic and it’s just a matter of connecting with the characters?

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Vonter
Then there's the franchise appeal. Which inherently gains something because of persistence, awareness and name. It is hard when great visual effort is mainly put in things that are guaranteed to be a hit, because original stuff tend to make mistakes to find their own identity. Which in itself makes them very risky affairs.
Vonter
It's also a heavy flaw of the internet, having mainly binary opinions of good or bad. Which makes it hard to tell if you'll like something in the 7s like Nier or Alien 3 (might not be a 7 but opinions make it sound like it is). Divisive products that may or not may suit one's tastes.
Vonter
Personally I think the issue has become what suits your tastes, what are you willing to give a chance and what hits beyond the medium it is presented.
Vonter
@AidanAK47 "Manga in general is great but Jesus Christ the industry is a mess". - I mean, movies, games, and other entertainment have the same issue, since everyone has a big slice of the pie, yet there are like a million things competing for one's attention.
SuperMario
On that note, apart from the 3 shows I'n currently covering (Eccentric Family, Tsuki ga Kirei and ID-0), I will give a full review on Grimoire of Zero, a show that I feel rather difficult to pinpoint exactly on its quality.
SuperMario
Can't believe we approaching the final week of this current season. Gonna be a busy week of blogging with the usual weekly posts plus the final impressions.
SuperMario
@Anon1206174: I agree with you on both counts. And Sakura Quest has never been bad, but it could have been deeper and less messy. If you plan to watch ID-0 (I suggest you do), don't get your expectation too high because it works much better when you expect nothing of it. Like each episode I was genuinely surprised how good ID-0 actually is.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I remember one of Aidan's visual novel posts where he said theres potentially hundreds of VNs un-translated and LNs too, makes me wonder just how much un-translated manga we are missing out on.
Anonymous1206174
The ID-o posts sound pretty interesting, I am really thinking of dropping Sakura and watching this instead. Really loved the beginnign of Sakura and that abandoned town atmosphere it had, but I am not feeling it anymore. The recent episode about Shiori was great again though..
Kaiser-Eoghan
*looking
Then again he's an extremely forgetable person.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Oh Godammit, looing back over my comments I meant to say Souta not Setsuna, I suck at remembering non-English names.
Anonymous1205999
Meh - I really like this season but I already have my first cases of 'good-show-disappointing-ending/second half'
Anonymous1206022
KT Here:RE:Creators , we need to know more about the rules for Altair to see if that works. It might, and it might not. With what they know they have a good plan. But I was thinking why not just do a Super Smash Bros type game with the characters? I am sure that would generate enough stuff in order to lock her.
SuperMario
On Re:Creators, I find a better solution instead of going all cross-media like the show suggests. Someone could just make some fan-fiction on Altair that purposely show her weakness (like get busted when expose to the sun, or the magic word that render her skills useless). Less efforts, more effective
SuperMario
Man, I agree wholeheartedly with what KT said here: mass media actually sells, so it keeps the industry to a more stable position; then the art-house/more adult oriented anime can have some freedom to do what they like.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think its more that I have to read it all at the same time as expecting action to come , it might change my mind if I watched it in English.
Anonymous1205580
KT here: I accept the mass media because it raises the funds for the less mainstream stuff I like. That is how I make my peace.

On RE:Creators. I get what you guys say. But for some reason I do not find the exposition heavy in this series. Every person has his own limit I guess
Alonaria
@Kaiser: Yep, that sounds about right, lol. I take my Sheldon in concentrated doses. I might give the Young Sheldon spin off an episode or two because it's highly exaggerated but still somewhat relatable to me.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I feel big bang theory is a show for people who know nothing about nerds/nerd culture to find funny.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And then theres this thing about Sheldon being some kind of autism spectrum thing , which is kind of annoying to hear when I am on the spectrum myself and never really found the character all that amusing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Probably not the strongest reason to go off a show but, it was people around me going on and on about big bang theory that eventually put me off it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
lol is it any surprise Miura and the hunter x hunter guy take so many breaks =P
Alonaria
*Sheldon
Alonaria
I pick and choose Big Bang episodes that I enjoy. Shelden in the ball pit never ceases to amuse me. Still, it's definitely overrated haha.
Lenlo
IT Crowd > Modern Big Bang. Early Big Bang was good.

And yes, the work conditions in the Manga Industry are terrible. Oda, One Piece Mangaka, works stupid hours. He requests his assistances be "Willing to die for One Piece" because of the amount of work.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And hell yeah"! someone else thats hates on big bang theory.
IT crowd > big bang.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*more safer
Kaiser-Eoghan
And yet now here I am at same time, I think it might be kind of a shame that I can't see the value and fun anymore in some less safer offerings.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I thinking I might go insane if I looked up comments defending the visuals in occultic; nine.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Hate to say it but sometimes opinions, mainstream ones are actually wrong. Its a fact that superhero films have bad action scenes and cinematography and Hardboiled, a chinese action film is better filmed in terms of choreography.
Kaiser-Eoghan
As dickish as this is to say, I really do recoil when ssomeone says something like the Notebook or fifty shades is the best film of all time/their favourite.
Kaiser-Eoghan
See theres also factoring in the people whos favourite film or anime of all is the most recent they finished.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I remember mentioning recently that I was re-watching the twilight zone, the response I got was "I thought that you were talking about twilight"
Kaiser-Eoghan
See thats whats so great about being able to talk about more niche stuff online, theres an easier to find common ground.
AidanAK47
In general when it comes to mass popular opinion it's the tried and true safe stuff that ends up selling. The highest selling Mario games are the New Super Mario ones. The same generic Light novel and harems keep selling. There are plenty of examples but majority opinion tends to gravitate to the safe and familiar.
Kaiser-Eoghan
See, most (offline) people (and or teenagers)who aren't really all that interested in film or don't look into it that much will turn out for things like fifty shades, transformers or twilight, thats why those are popular. Most people aren't going to watch something made more than a few years ago or subtitled.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Oh...lol fuck thats a blunder...yes I meant Re:creators.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But by all means, people are fully entitled to like what they like. But there is a reason why so much rubbish gets popular.
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, Re:Creators.
Kaiser-Eoghan
As someone who would actually consider themselves creative and interested in things being imaginative I really do hate the whole anti-creativity /anti-art, anti-intelligence movement and way of thinking that allows un-deservedly popular things like what Aidan mentioned to fester.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Yes Re:zero's poor pacing and leaden dialogue is becoming too dominant and there should be more action, its good Setsuna opened up, but I still don't particularly like him.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I imagine the magazines/editors probably consider themselves the writers sometimes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Pretty sure I only read nisekoi because I was keeping up with conversations about it, then dropped it before the Chitoge doublie showed up, just stopped reading.
AidanAK47
On the matter of Re:Creators, I feel the same as the Anon said. I find the exposition to just drone on far too much.
AidanAK47
On the matter of the manga industry being shit...it is. Manga in general is great but Jesus Christ the industry is a mess. Work conditions are utterly abhorrent and it's even worse that most series live or die based on a magazine popularity poll.
Because just because something is popular, does not mean it is quality. Example: Transformers, Twilight, Fifty shades, Sword Art Online, Big Bang theory
AidanAK47
@Anon, Still not getting your logic here. I mean if I have a problem with it after trying it then why am I not allowed to complain about it? Anyway it is only popular for the pandering. Even those who like Nisekoi admit that it's a mediocre harem and they mainly enjoy the waifu wars on the internet.
SuperMario
and now we will resort to illegal streaming sites for this one. "Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem", this f*cking true
SuperMario
Huh? Welcome to the Ballroom Anime Gets Amazon Prime-Only Streaming Inside and Outside Japan. Now that just unbearable
SuperMario
Don't know about this new Re:Creators episode since I haven't watched it, but I don't really mind Meteora. Her dialogues scream "exposition" but she still fits well to the story. The fights are good, I agree, but why didn't they go all the way with the world's collapse last episode?
Anonymous1202407
Whether Nisekoi is pandering or not, it is not enough proof for you to suggest that manga industry is shit. If u want good mainstream then its not that hard to find. Also for every success like Nisekoi which u claim to be pandering, there are dozen like it that failed to be popular. Why? Because it clearly is popular for a reason other than just simple pandering.
SuperMario
Ha, Ping Pong. I need that kind of show again in my life.
Lenlo
Also, Ping Pong is amazing.
Lenlo
Theres a difference between pandering to a large audience, and an anime/manga with a quality story that everyone ends up liking. Ive always found moe shows and things like Nisekoi to be the former.
Anonymous1202407
If you have a problem with it after trying it just dont read it. Its that simple. Also what a surprise that a show like nisekoi that appeals to a large demographic is popular. U want the mangaka to apologize it's not some art house story like Ping Pong?
Lenlo
Meteora is pretty hit or miss with her dialogue imo. Sometimes its great, othertimes its not. I can say though I enjoy most of the fights.
Anonymous1202113
I really want to like Re:Creators. To be honest though, I'm getting tired of the dialogue. It has its high points, but it sometimes just seems to drone on and on, especially with all of Meteora's "hypotheses."
KT
Both Bahamut and RE:Creators had great episodes. But I was indeed mentally screaming Super Smash Bros at RE:Creators. You will get the point when you watch the episode.
AidanAK47
Taken on it's own, Nisekoi is harmless. But it is undeniably proof that you need not be creative or innovative to succeed in the industry. In fact declaring creative bankruptcy could turn more fruitful than genuine effort.
AidanAK47
And I said how can you decide you don't like something if you haven't read it?
Of course you are likely mean that if you don't like something then give up on reading it further which of course does not mean that someone cannot complain about it regardless.
Anonymous1198985
No, Im said if you dont like nisekoi dont read it
AidanAK47
@Anon, How do you know you don't like it if you don't read it?
Anonymous1196967
Don't like it don't read it.
AidanAK47
I went and read Double Arts. This really was a great manga with tons of potentail and truly didn't deserve the axe. It's so depressing that this was cut off so soon and the author went on to make the most generic Harem ever Nisekoi, and that got over 200 chapters.
Lenlo
All of the important dance scenes for Yuri were fantastic, its just some minor one off characters and some reused ones that were an issue, so no they are better than the CGI
Anonymous1190387
Is it worse than those CGI dance scenes in some anime?
AidanAK47
@Puran, It is pretty surprising how well that story turns out. I say IG might do the job even if there animation isn't the most consistent. The one thing I am worried about is those necks though. In the PV those things were ridiculously long.
Puran
Fair enough, recycling the animation was bad, agreed. But the animation itself was really good.
Lenlo
See, I found the repeated dances in Yuri one of the worse parts. Alot of it was recycled animation and certain characters were obviously rushed/not done. Some were amazing, cause they took their time, but others looked terrible.
Puran
I kinda wish Mappa was doing the anime though. Yuri on Ice had really nicely animated dances (and was more or less the only actually good quality of that show :P )
Puran
Reading the Ballroom e Youkoso manga has made me really excited about the Anime.
Kaiser_Eoghan
@Aidan: I'm particularly turned off by bully/bullying cliches these days. I've only read the first two volumes to see how awful she was but I ended up simply losing track of the series and stopped reading.
Kaiser_Eoghan
@Mario: Actually that has changed, I had to pick a different day to see it given changes in schedule, I've booked it for NEXT Wednesday now. I've watched Akira about four times.
AidanAK47
Oh, Rising of the Shield Hero is getting an anime adaption. Hmmm...honestly after finishing the series and looking over it as a whole I am not sure I even want that. Plus seeing Bitch Animated...would fill me with rage.
SuperMario
I intend to re-watch Akira soon, probably this weekend. It has been almost 10 years since my first watch and now I don't remember much about that one. Thought it was intriguing and complex but not as acclaimed as people hyped it to be (I'll pick Ghost in the Shell anytime). Wonder how I'd feel now after re-watching it.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: I remember you mentioned that you were going to watch In this Corner of the World today right? How was the movie Kaiser?
Lenlo
Oh cool, food wars is getting a 3rd season
Kaiser-Eoghan
Ballroom youkoso appears to be leading the polls.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Fumiko is a female mangaka yes. Also I found bokura no hentai worth reading.
SuperMario
yep, I finished that manga too and I have conflicted feeling about it. Yuri(!) part and fanservice are to blatant but they have a purpose. This mangaka (not sure but I think she's a girl) has some unique voice.
AidanAK47
....well I skimmed that manga. And it was weird
SuperMario
By all appearances,Sakura is normal,albeit sheltered junior high school girl who enjoy talking about love and walking home from school together.However,they also happen to inhabit a strange and supernatural world populated by mysterious,gigantic beings and unusual plant and animal life.Amid their peaceful lives,Sakura becomes very interested in something only alluded to exist in old books: dicks
SuperMario
Here's a synopsis of other manga from the same author, I think you'll have a better idea of his theme -
Sakura no Sono
AidanAK47
Pretty much what Masky said. I am not really praising it. Anyway I plan to read one or two more chapters to see where it's going. But if it's going in the direction I think it's going then I am dropping this one fast.
Kaiser_Eoghan
There is of course the underlying concern that it will go a very ugly route with that development or it could become edgy/horribly minipulative, but for now it is as mario said, a hook.
SuperMario
Well. overall I don't dislike what I read there. It has good hook and I'm intrigued to know more what the hell will happen. Good set-up for me. I'm in
SuperMario
@Masky: it's fine Masky, since I will chec itk out any way and see it for myself ^^
Masky
So since you guys started being interested, I checked it out and uh.. Yeah, not reading. I think ye guys misunderstood Aidans warnings since that was just fucked up and not in the interesting way.
Lenlo
@Aidan: Berserk will never again go more than 3-4 months without a hiatus.
SuperMario
Hmmm, that manga Cutie Mutie sounds good to me. I might check it out later today
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: But had you not alluded to that scene, I may have seen the cover of that manga and skipped over it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: I had a feeling, sort of, sad, I am intrigued to read more.
AidanAK47
Hyping and warning are not the same thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Well with Aidan hyping up the horrors of cutie mutie I may as well glance at it to see what he' on about.
Kaiser-Eoghan
There are three manga with the name rec.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I am familiar with the artist for cutie mutie, she did that manga about the three kids dealing with gender/orientation issues.
AidanAK47
Oh look Berserk is on Haitus again....
.....the sad thing is that it comes as expected now.
AidanAK47
For reference the two I read were Cutie Mutie and Rec. Be warned, the first one goes to a rather uncomfortable level.
AidanAK47
@Masky, Read two manga. One started lighthearted and then went to really dark territory. The other one looks like it's about a really dark subject but turned out to be something more lighthearted.
AidanAK47
@Mario, Alright. Tested it now so it such be fixed. Try again.
Masky
@Aidan: Huh? What you read that turned dark/didn't turn dark? .-.
SuperMario
"too many answers selected for question 1! only 3 answers allowed!"
SuperMario
@Aidan: I still have the same issues. Weird
AidanAK47
@Mario, Wasn't my intent. Try it now and you should be able to pick as many as you want.
SuperMario
@Aidan: I'm not allowed to vote more than 3 votes. Is it your intention Aidan?
AidanAK47
Well that was weird. I read something that looked innocent but turned out to be really dark. Then something that looked really dark only to become innocent.
Masky
Yeah, nothing that interests me I see :D Like my strongest reaction to season preview was "Someone made isekai with smartphone? Really? REALLY? Thats best idea you had"
Masky
Ah Knighs and Magic, found that manga. It was boring enough for me to forget its name. Also besides being boring, I kinda find MC unlikeable since their only personality is that they like mechas and were a programmer before renicarnating as short bishie kid
Masky
Woo, time to vote stuff
SuperMario
@Kaiser: that movie In this Corner just getting more and more acclaimed huh? Thou I think it'a a type of movie that if you have high expectation for it you will likely be disappointed. It works best as a sleeper hit
SuperMario
As for cute monster girls, most of the time I don't find them cute at all. I know I'm being racist, but...
SuperMario
@Lenlo: I'm guilty with that cute girls genre, as i enjoyed K-On tremedously for example. Or If I have more time I'd follow Hinako Note this season ^^
Kaiser-Eoghan
They don't always adapt all that well or work as well outside of manga format, especially 4-komas.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*three
Kaiser-Eoghan
The only two of any interest were hidamari sketch, azumanga daioh and yuru yuri and that was largely down to being in the mood for them a few years ago.
Lenlo
@Mario: Personally, I have 0 interest in this Monster girls doing cute things subgenre, just like I have very little interest in the cute girls doing cute things major genre.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: As it turns out I DID read in this corner of the world. I'll also be seeing it next thursday.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: at this moment I'm very skeptical with the whole Monster girls doing cute girl subgenre, so I'm approachig Centaur with a caution. Of course, it all depends on how I feel after the first episode
SuperMario
@Kaiser: Happy End isn't as bleak aa his other works. But it's certainly Hanake's films, as it explores many of his favorite themes: the voyeurist of camera in his Benny's video, the detachment to the world and the underlying violence. Not his best thou but it's still very good
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think I'd be up for watching jigoku shojo, its been a long time since I watched the original two seasons and this one won't be as long, so it won't get as repetitive.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I voted centaur no nanami on the poll, think Mario could cover it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: How did did you get on with Happy end? I heard its like a mix of his best works. Is it as dark and depressing?
Kaiser-Eoghan
I have vague memories of in the corner of the worlds manga, unless I'm mixing it up with something else.
SuperMario
Some news, Lu Over the Wall won the best prize at this year's Annecy (the 1st anime won the award since 1995's Pom Poko), with In the Corner of the World took the Jury Prize. Quite a good showing for anime this year.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Hello.
SuperMario
Really, still no vote for Kakegurui?? I thought it would take the top poll for sure
SuperMario
That 18if, even the poster doesn't make much sense, but it looks dazzling ^^
Lenlo
go-go licensed products!
SuperMario
@Lenlo: and Madhouse is the studio behind that Marvel rip-off. Are they really going that low for profits?
Lenlo
Lookin forward to Kakeguri next season, but thats the only thing thats really caught my eye
Lenlo
Well, you have to watch Marvel next season right?
AidanAK47
And done. I swear these previews take a lot out of me.
AidanAK47
Almost done....almost done...
KT
Attack of Titan, ended ok. But man the production values had gone down.

Virgin Soul had a okish episde

Re:Creators continues to rock for me.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I liked the 70s version ending, it was mean spirited =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: The original used its one room location quite well and dim lighting in parts, very closed in/claustrophobic.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: just finished the Beguiled and it was much better than I expected. Like, I didn't expect it to be that well shot. The guy was put in a passive role than active here, which help the theme imo. Also, the ending admitedly isn't for everyone but I liked it just fine
SuperMario
@Kaiser: using a black girl? The girls in this one are all white :(
AidanAK47
Sato in Re:Creators isn't doing himself any favors is he? Honestly the more I learn about him, the less likable he becomes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
It was a good film though, one of scarjos better moments.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: As for Sofia, I'm only familiar with lost in translation, which I haven't seen since it originally came out.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Everyone goes on about Francis' for the Godfather, the conversation is massively underated and apocalypse now is better, but it has to be the theatrical cut.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I guess it was probably seen as progressive in its day by way of using the black girl.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Very very cynically 70s of course.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Actually just happened to finish it there, I felt it stood out for its somewhat successful gothic feel and aesthetic and Eastwood's performance which shows how well he can command the audiences attention even when he isn't shooting people. Kind of liked how it got slightly grisly later on. It makes a small effort in giving one line backstories .
SuperMario
@Kaiser: the original movie isn't that well-received. It's more like an exotica film where the main guy (Clint Eastwood) hooks up girls of all ages. This one I heard has a good spin on feminist angle. I'm sure is intrigued but Sofia Coppola's filmography has been mixed for me
Kaiser-Eoghan
....I doubt any one has ever heard of this....I know I didn't, I haven't read it either but I came across some weird old Blacksploitation manga, probably from the 90s, Blast knuckle or something...
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Still remaking the beguiled might be good, we need more modern westerns.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I suppose I can busy myself with the original 70s version of beguiled. At the moment I've been focusing on old Japanese films, they had such a good film industry, it makes it hurt so much more now knowing that all they do now is shit live action adaptations.
Total users: 40

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