Posted by psgels on 12 November 2009 with categories: Umineko no Naku Koro ni



Whoa, the CG Shaders have found Umineko at last. I have to say, that now that the properly shaded characters actually look pretty good. That’s the thing with Studio Deen’s graphics: it either looks really good or really bad. There’s hardly any in between.

Anyway, this episode rounds off the second part of Ange’s background. We learn that she’s not only revived Maria, but also she attempted to train as a witch, which eventually went wrong. On top of that, Maria is also revealed to be not just a witch, but also as Beatrice’s ally. Which does at the moment make no sense because I have no idea on whose side Maria truly is. If it is true that magic even existed in the first arc, it would explain her strange behavior there: she indeed was on Beatrice’s side, and merely enjoyed Beatrice’s little game a bit too much.

The question of course remains: if this is true, then what was up with her in the subsequent arcs? And I think that that’s where the real killer comes in. My guess is that as a little kid, she knew Beatrice and she really believed that whoever was behind the murders was Beatrice. This worked in the first arc because she was one of the people that the killer apparently let live (or at least, killed the last), however in the subsequent arcs (especially the third) she wasn’t as lucky and realized that someone other than Beatrice was on a killing spree.

I really suspect that Maria is able to remember every single arc. That would explain her huge change in character, and more importantly why she was able to write down every single detail about all of the arcs so far. It’s a bit of a mystery how she ended up writing about her own death, but again: at this point we have no idea exactly how much influence magic has in the real world. The witches must have been able to use illusions: otherwise people would not have been able to see them, and if magic really was the culprit then it doesn’t make any sense that it completely disappears once the magic scenes are over.

Lambdadelta comes with an interesting twist at the end, although I don’t think I fully understand it. She mentions how, when Battler wins the game he gets sent back to 1986, not 1998. However, doesn’t that mean that Ange still gets to meet her brother, only his 30-year-old version? Or did she mean that Meta-Battler gets sent back to the dimension he came from, while the other Battler simply remains dead? After all, it actually seems that Battler survived in the second arc. I’m actually pretty interested to see what happened to the Ange of that world.
Rating: * (Good)

29 Responses

  1. Deus says:

    @psgels: “Lambdadelta comes with an interesting twist at the end, although I don’t think I fully understand it. She mentions how, when Battler wins the game he gets sent back to 1986, not 1998. However, doesn’t that mean that Ange still gets to meet her brother, only his 30-year-old version?”

    It means even if Battler wins, the Ange standing right there at that moment (the one who grew up without a family) will not be able to get her family back. Solving the mystery wont undo the past. A *different* Ange may be able to grow up happily, but it won’t be her.

    For Ange, this means she’s basically fighting the fight for another another version of herself, and even if she wins she has absolutely no reward. Her family is gone whether she wins or loses.

  2. Kincaid says:

    I don’t watch this show but your mentioning the CG making the show look better made me look at the screenshots again.

    That looks like an ungodly amount of brightness/bloom o__o

  3. Westlo says:

    “After all, it actually seems that Battler survived in the second arc.”

    He got torn apart and eaten by goats IIRC, same with Kinzo.

  4. chounokoe says:

    What Lambda meant was, that the Battler of the game which is won will go home and meet his sister again…what happens to his meta-self remains unclear now.

    It is similar to what was explained in Higurashi’s Saikoroshi-hen, of course every world continues to exist and FurudeRika’s consciousness changing the fate of one(!) Furude Rika won’t change the fact that every arc we’ve seen so far leaves the characters destroyed, dead or worse.

    One additional thing that maybe was a bit hard to notice in the anime, because it was only mentioned briefly, but the content in Maria’s diary which was written by Beatrice in the scene in Kuwadorians garden is similar in handwriting to the two letters that were found and described the scenario of Episode 1 and 2…which is strange, isn’t it?

  5. soavifox says:

    Ex, thanks for the links. it was nice to see an extended version of that scene basically.

  6. Taiyaki says:

    @psgels

    “… and more importantly why she was able to write down every single detail about all of the arcs so far….”

    It was shown in this episode that Maria COULDN’T have written the bottle letters.

    The handwriting from the letters was similar to Beatrice’s handwriting (or at least, the person who wrote on Maria’s diary and referred to themselves as “Beatrice”), not Maria’s. This person basically wrote all of the letters and then signed them as “Maria Ushiromiya”.

  7. Marion says:

    It should be made clear: The only time any has EVER survived was when Eva lived in the conclusion of EP 3 and made it out alive. Otherwise no one on the island has ever made it out.

    As far as Maria knowing whatever happens I have doubts of this myself. It’s not the same as it was with Rika in Higurashi – Rika had died over hundreds of times, which is why she knew the general outcome of any situation. Just because Maria is Beatrice’s friend doesn’t mean she knows what happens, especially if you go the ‘magic isn’t the culprit’ route.

    As far as the details of each arc Maria DID NOT write those letters. Otsuki (the guy Ange talked to) recognized the handwriting to be the same as Beatrice’s signature. That means Maria’s Beatrice and the one who gave Sakutaro a ‘human’ form is the one writing down the endroll of each arc and signing it in Maria’s name.

    Lambda’s explanation of Bern’s promise is like this: If Battler wins this game (the current one) then he won’t go back to the Ange of EP 3 (“Gretel”) but rather will go back to the little 1986 Ange of EP 4. Ange (our Ange) never had a chance of getting Battler or her family to return to her, which is what Bern had basically told her what would happen. So Bern lied to Ange.

  8. Deus says:

    @ Marion

    Technically, Bernkastel didn’t lie about anything. She never promised anything in the first place (“I can’t make any promises). And as the Witch of Miracles, you could say that miracles are miracles because they *don’t* happen.

    Bern herself stated she was the “cruelest witch” the first time we see her. She’s been upfront from the start that she is *not* a nice person.

  9. Camario says:

    I don’t know about that, for me it came across as if Bernkastel had kept Ange out of the loop, but this revelation doesn’t make for a direct contradiction. In fact, in retrospect it would have made sense for Ange to reach that conclusion on her own.

    Anyway, the episode was slow and not very exciting, but I thought it was interesting enough in spite of that and the slightly confusing jump between different points in the chronology of events.

  10. Frost says:

    So they are playing with dimensions now… I can see it already, quantum physics will explain magic, that must be it -.-

  11. Marion says:

    @Deus: Very true. Still I guess Ange was just a bit shocked, because Bern told her that if she suceeded there would be a chance of her getting her family back when in reality there was NEVER a chance.

  12. soavifox says:

    I don’t think Bern lied at all. She meerly omitted part of the truth. Its true, that if battler wins, she’ll get her family back. However the her that wants her family back will no longer exist. She’d have to sacrifice herself to save herself that pain of speration.

  13. Zaric says:

    It seems like once Battler stepped off the game board and into the meta word that he became something more than human. This is clearly evidanced with his return in the second arc after getting ripped part by goats.

    I’m guessing that like Eva and Eva-Beatrice or Maria and the Witch Maria… Meta-Battler is a wizard, warlock, sorcerer, or some mythical incarnation the human form. The fact he denies magic doesn’t change the fact he’s existing in the mythic realm, as opposed to the real world.

    I’m betting if Batter did win the games once and for all that his piece in the game would live on and get off the island alive, however the meta version of him, that him that exists in the mythical realm would most likely persist in that form.

    What I figure from the ending twist is that Ange can never return to the past and become that little girl again. Even if a new time-line is created, her magical nature, being Ange-Beatrice, will simply witness the changed timeline from a third person prospective.

  14. Reltair says:

    If you stop and start thinking about it, this series can easily become very confusing. Just when I think I know what’s going on, everything changes.

  15. Viewer says:

    There’s something else about Maria; remember in the third game, when Eva-Beatrice confronts Rosa and Maria outside? Even though Rosa obviously saw Eva, Maria didn’t seem to recognise the person standing before them, even before Eva-Beatrice revealed her true form. In fact, Maria only knew that it was “Beatrice” standing before them when the witch announced her own name.

    Any theories how this could be?

  16. Deus says:

    @ Viewer:

    A few theories:

    a. “Beatrice” is the culprit. That is, the person having tea with Maria in the flashback, wrote in her diary, and gave Sakurato human form is the killer in act 3. This can be any person (a playmate, perhaps? Shannon, Jessica look suspicious). Said person may not really be magical, but Maria believes them to be. The way they were killed is false, like Beatrice and Virgilia’s fight scene, and was done via mundane means.

    b. “Beatrice” was there, but was not the culprit. Same as A, but Maria sees “Beatrice”, and is quickly killed by another person. This is symbolically supported in the fact that while Beatrice may *represent* a culprit, *Eva Beatrice* is not the one Maria is friendly with. I.e. Maria may be friendly with *a* Beatrice, and this person may be a culprit, but Eva-Beatrice is another culprit acting as Beatrice and is not “her” Beatrice. This would apply if any culprit is *symbolically* Beatrice.

    c. Don’t trust the scene. Or the scene could be a lie.

    d. The scene went exactly as it did.

  17. kettobase says:

    the message in a bottle thing seemed like a big revelation from this episode… the two messages in a bottle from 2 different arcs/games both appeared in Ange’s “real future world”

    …it makes it seem like magic is real and whats happening is exactly what the witches say-they’re playing games where they continuously repeat the events on the island in different ways… so time on the island is being repeated over and over while the outside world’s time just keeps going

  18. kettobase says:

    forgot to say… that if that were true it would also explain why Bernkastel could bring the older version of Ange into the “past”/game and would also sort of mean what Lamdadelta told Ange was just a bluff

  19. Deus says:

    Or it could mean a human culprit is imagining their murders beforehand, and the previous arcs are their “stories” of how it would go.

  20. tadam says:

    I’ve never seen a reaction from psgels in the umineko comments section :P

  21. Viewer says:

    @Dues

    It probably wasn’t Jessica or Shannon in the third game who committed the murders; while it’s used by witches, the red truth is fundamentally the closest thing we have to knowing what is actually happening on the island.

    One of the specific things that Eva-Beatrice confirmed was “Jessica Ushiromiya didn’t commit murder”, which brings us to the real kicker; Dr. Nanjo was killed at pointblank range by a person, who wasn’t Jessica or Battler, but Eva (the only person on the island who actually survived the incident) was with Battler the whole time. Obviously, drugs could have been used on Battler, but that is a somewhat abused argument as it is, isn’t it? Perhaps Eva was hypnotized, her controller using her greed and anger to make her act on his/her whims?

    And I’d like to omit what I mentioned about Maria before; she’s young, and Eva could have simply been acting strange enough for her not to recognize her aunt over the matter, or the person could have disguised themself as Eva (I’d like to point out that the marks on Maria’s neck show she was strangled with on hand, and it would have to be an adult’s too). Simply put, Rosa used Eva’s appearance, while Maria used her behavior, to try and recognize the person in the garden. Unlike in the other arcs, it’s become fairly obvious that at least one murder on the island was committed by Eva in the third game; the problem is in finding out if she did them all, which ones she did other than Battler, if any, or simply if she was acting as a puppet for the “Beatrice” entity (I don’t mean supernatural entity, I’m just using that word in place for a gender specific identifier). My theories for the scene I talked about are;

    A: “Beatrice” used Eva’s clothing in an elaborate disguise that Maria saw through while Rosa didn’t.
    B: It was actually Eva in the garden, while Hideyoshi was out smoking, drugged, or otherwise unaware of his wife’s actions.

  22. FaS says:

    :( I dropped this show due to time issues, but want to pick it back up. Judging from you getting all the way to episode 20, I suspect it’s pretty legit ;D Anyways, nice blog! I’ve been keeping up w/you since last summer. Great detailed posts. Mind if I add you to my blogroll?

  23. Deus says:

    @ Viewer:

    There’s a fundamental error, in that equating Beatrice = murderer, when in fact a character can *play* Beatrice without killing anyone at all, satisfying the red truth. As I stated, there may even be multiple Beatrice’s: “Maria’s” Beatrice, her benefactor whom she plays tea parties with, and “murderer” Beatrice, who kills everyone, or any combination in between.

    The problem with Eva as the culprit in part 3 is that she’s way too obvious. They practically spoonfed that answer to us. Which means she, as the main culprit (aside from her murder of Battler, which may have been motivated by fear, in suspecting Battler as the murderer ala “Wolf and Sheep” puzzle), is most likely wrong. Same for Rosa in part 2.

    My personal suspect? Nanjo. That is, Nanjo in collusion with a person (or persons) he previously proclaimed as “dead”. As a doctor, he’s usually the first and only person to examine the bodies, and there is no guarantee on what he says except his word. He’s *very* suspicious, in ALL arcs. Said person then kills him to keep him quiet, then simply leaves, leaving Eva to wander to Kuwadorian.

    Who’s the killer then? Somebody who we think of as dead earlier in the arc, but was never announced in red.

  24. psgels psgels says:

    tadam: lol, I just like to read the different theories that you guys are all posting. If I have any issues with them, I usually subtly include this in subsequent posts.

    FaS: sure, go ahead. :)

  25. Sacchi says:

    I and some other people discuss the episodes of Umineko on a forum. I thought you could be interested in reading my post about this episode. Check the very last part for something I noticed regarding what you said about Maria having been killed in the third game.

    Just for the note, I haven’t played the games, so if I happen to come across something that’s true, 1) Don’t tell me. 2) Don’t delete this post for spoilers, since this is only what I’ve noticed. Ok, here it goes:

    Let’s see…we now know that Beatrice’s name is Beatrice Warugiria, although I’m not sure if we already knew this, or if it serves for anything. Just wondering, do wives in Japan get the last name of their husband like in USA? ‘Cause that would mean that Beatrice was never wive of Kinzo, although the possibility of her being his secret love stands.

    Also, I didn’t quite understand something. I don’t get japanese, so please excuse me. But did the episode just reveal that the letters that were supposedly written by Maria were actually written by Beatrice’s master (totally forgot her name)? It would make sense. When the guy recognizes the letter, they clearly focus on the letter type at the end of the page. We also see that the letter at the end of the page is completely different to the one that is written in most of the page. Checking the book scene again, we clearly see that it is Beatrice who starts writing, and then Beato’s master finally writes something at the end of the page, which is what the guy in the restaurant finally notices.

    Now, there’s two possibilities. Either Maria is a nice ally of Beatrice and that explains why she wasn’t killed before, or Beato’s master is clearly trying to trick Ange and Battler with her acting as Maria. After all, we did know that it wasn’t Maria who wrote the letters and put them in the whine bottles, and we know that Beato’s master has always been an ally of Beatrice, since she helped Beato trick Battler with all the Evatrice thing. That would mean that Ange and Maria ARE indeed good friends, but the Maria and Beatrice that we saw in the “black space for witches only” were Beatrice and Beatrice’ master. Since Beatrice master clearly supports Beatrice, that’s why “Maria” says “I’ve got a power that you don’t have Ange, and that is magic.”

    My current theory is that in this episode we saw both the real Maria witch and the false Maria. False Maria in the whole “black space” scene, true Maria in helping Ange get better with her powers by calling the 7 sisters. Still not sure about the Maria in the tea party in secret garden, ’cause that was just weird. For one side, you’ve got that whatever happened there clearly was written on Maria’s diary. On the other hand, it could have just been a trick, or possibly Maria met the true Beatrice, the one that we were shown that fell off a cliff and died.

    Or, assuming that witches don’t exist at all, we send this episode to a very, very far away corner in our minds and ignore it :D

    EDIT: Quit the censoring! I freaking want to see halloween sweets in people’s stomaches xD

    EDIT2: Ok, just thought of something. First, I started thinking why Maria got killed in the third game “peacefully” by Beatrice. Then, I realized that all that was a freaking illusion. And then, I realized that 3 games have happened so far, yet there are only 2 letters describing the events of the third game…

  26. ebisu says:

    Well i think here starts to play the two basic or usual time theories, usually incompatible with each other. One is that everything you change in the past will affect your future and actually change your present, and the other is that changing the past will create a parallel dimension where events go a different way, but it won’t affect your present.
    And so the bottles are fact that there is going on a change on the present that results in a different order of the events later. So my guess is that Lamba is lying like a witch(she says the most convenient truth for her) and Ange has still the chance now that she is out of the chessboard.

    Also about Maria, the events in this fourth arc seems to have changed because of Kawamura/Virgilia awakening in the third arc. Warugiria is awakened since the start of this story now so it is natural that magical events, like Sakutarou and Maria’s, happen in a different order.
    For my theory, now we know that everything that happens in a chessboard will have consequences in the next one, even if you reset the game. That explains why the killers change maybe. And just to say, if Battler wins Ange could end in her body of 6 years knowing all about the witches and enjoying her happy ending.

    Finally, Kinzo has died all 3 times being burnt to death so he might have been really dead since the beggining, though his fucking ring is the clue to resolve a lot of the murders. Note also, the writing of the two letters is the same so the job’s done by the same person. So if it is not Maria the writer then one assassin in first and two arcs is the same person and survives till the end.

  27. Lloyd says:

    Hey, Long time reader First time poster. Can I just say that this blog is what keeps me coming back to Battler and his one sided war against magic? You really help clarifiy points I might have missed.

    And speaking of which:

    Remember everyone, according to battler’s theory in the last arc, one of the six people who died in the key switching locked rooms on the first twilight was the killer too. There may have been two killers in the last Arc. (Which may even be the one who was responsible for George and his dad’s death, if Eva was his/her accomplice.)

    Wait… sudden thought… Did beato say in red text that each one of the twilight deaths were actually.. you know… dead?

  28. Deus says:

    @ Lloyd:

    Yes, all characters killed in the first twilight were stated dead in red.

    What *does* raise red flags, however, is the failure to state Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi dead (Ronove starts, but never finishes). So a case can be made that an original murderer started out with the usual “kill 6 people plan” as per the first 2 arcs, screwed up along the way and got themselves killed, and one of those 3 people not stated in red (plus or minus a few accomplices) took up the slack in murdering for the rest of the arc.

    What’s more, if we take magical events as symbolic of events as they happen in reality, only distorted, then it makes even more sense. Beatrice effectively gives up an active role in events after the first twilight (the original killer taken out of the equation), and replaced with *another* magical representation: Eva Beatrice, symbolizing another individual or set of individuals carrying out the murders.

    This “murderer set 2” may be *triggered* by “murderer set 1”, but is not related to it otherwise.

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Kaiser-Eoghan
While I haven't read this, its very strange to see a manga about full anthro animal characters: http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Beastars
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Vonter: So based on that I will try devil lady. Thanks.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Vonter: That'd be me who made that post. I thought dororon enma-kun was wonderfully ridiculous and Devilman gorishly entertaining, Shin Mazinger Z was probably some of the most fun I had with an anime, but violence jack took it way too far though so I guess I'm aquainted with nagai's work
Vonter
I don't remember who was looking for something noir in anime. I was looking among several series from Go Nagai. And watched some Devil Lady. I don't remember if noir is exclusively detective stories, but this anime, has those high contrast shadows, eerie music and is shot like some japanese horror movies I've seen. I don't know if it changes along the road but so far it's very suspenseful.
SuperMario
I only know him through his works in Berserk and Paprika but his music never fails to amaze me
Anonymous1626471
@Amagi: Ghost Bridge is my favourite. I just find it very calming. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeh5aJsxlbw
Amagi
Susumu Hirasawa is one of my favorite musicians/composers. I don't even know what kind of subgenre this is. There aren't any other music groups I know who do similar stuff
Nielllo
@Mario, Already saw that video before.
SuperMario
Check this out... I don't even know what the freaking instrument he's playing, but it's spellbound https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjalQjAomH0
Niello
Just when I thought Houseki no Kuni took the prize for best animation I was treated with Apocrypha. This week is amazing.
Niello
Big name animators all over. They really threw everything they've got here.
Niello
Woooooah! OMG Apocrypha ep 22 animation is sick! So that's why the animation in the first half of the show is so lackluster and basically just darn awful.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Its not entirely odd to bring up Heydrich in relation to the occult either, apparently he was said to be part of some whackjob order.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Hmmm, that girl from Dies irae, Anna Schwegln is aptly named, also shares her name with the last executed person for witchcraft, who was Bavarian German, which i'm told by an Austrian friend were particular right-est leaning politically.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Of course unfortunately its often the opposite that happens, nothing is worse than an ending that ruins everything.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Ah, how I love being surprised by something. That feeling where you''re watching something shakily held together, simply okay or good, then suddenly in the second half or last stretch your score of it goes massively up.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I can kind of understand the wanting to go home and watch something easy mentality instead of challenging but even though I'm guilty of escapism, I'm tired somewhat of "sillier" stuff, its often enjoyable but its get overly reptitive and I wish I could find more philosophical/political/imaginative things.
Amagi
Yeah the show is great because of its theme, the setting and chemistry girls have as well as their (lack of) knowledge about basic human things. Each episode thematizes this in a different way but there isn't much you can talk or say about it when you already explained the topic in detail.
SuperMario
On the other hand, I don't have much to talk about Girls' Last Tour this week. It's still good, but with this episode I feel that I'm running out of concrete thig to say about the show
SuperMario
Haha both Houseki and 3-gatsu have a good showing this week. I have a lot of things to talk about Houseki in particular
Amagi
This week's Houseki is jurassic park
Amagi
*-ati - I think Netflix and so are at least giving a few new impulses which isn't too bad. I don't think the typical anime series will disappear because of that.
Amagi
At least in comparisation
Amagi
I think it's just sad how often I see wonderful series selling 500 BD/DVD or maybe even less. Most series don't sell more than 1500 or so and the rest is usually at ~3000-5000 which is still pretty low.
Amagi
Yeah, it's one of my pro-Netflix arguments as well. Another problem is that anime (not counting manga) only make money through dvd/bd sales since they air at night, whereas Netflix or daytime tv series don't depend on the latter so much and since anime BDs are so expensive the only ones who buy them are the more extreme fans.
AidanAK47
Might be in part due to the workaholic nature of their society that makes escapist fantasy and empty entertainment more appealing than usual. Ultimately these are the people anime is made for so opening up the markets gives more deserving shows a fighting chance.
Though that isn't to say that western taste is perfect either.
AidanAK47
@Amagi, That's part of the reason I think some westernation might be a good thing as from what I seen the Japanese have truly terrible taste in anime. Sales charts from Japan just make me shake my head.
Amagi
God, the preorder anime lists are atricious. The only one that seems to sell acceptable (around 6k) is Mahoyome. Series like Inuyashiki have 80 pre-orders so far, Shuumatsu Shoujo 977. Idol shows sell good of course, including that male/bishounen Idolmaster
AidanAK47
@Anon, I read it but kinda fell out due to it's releases being slow.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Actually if you check the manga recommendations section, you'll see there is a post about it here.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Yes, it was interesting to follow a story that dealt with a characters homosexuallity that was outside of the yaoi/yuri mould.
Anonymous1620968
Out of curiosity, has anyone on here read Shimanami Tasogare?
Niello
Where are we up to with Inuyashiki?
Lenlo
Well alright then. Episode 9 out of 11 and that happens. Was not expecting that
Lenlo
Ooo something happen this week? Im about to watch it
Kaiser-Eoghan
It feels just as rushed and awkward in the manga.
Amagi
I noticed this too
AidanAK47
Inuyashiki has balls of steel to pull that in this particular episode number.
Nielllo
Finally got around to reading Helck, and it looks like it's going to go into that pile of good-shounen-that-won't-ever-get-animated right alongside Psyren.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Imagine trying to buy the dvds of the show in public.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Gentle remind that the prism ilya movie is out and subbed.
AidanAK47
Still surprised the second and third seasons got dubbed.
AidanAK47
@Angel, I replied to one of your comments before but the rundown is no official word yet but maybe next year.
Angel
Or no? Someone please tell me!!
Angel
Going to happen?
Angel
Is fate/kaleid liner prisma☆illya 3rei dub
Amagi
I dislike it when manga bait me into reading due to the first chapter and end up being some very generic stuff afterwards. Nobody stays for B if he started something for A, authours should expect that.
Lenlo
Really, Juuni should stick with the 3D. That fight in ep 9 looked pretty good. 3D is clearly what they are good at
AidanAK47
@Niello, It's not Chatango. It's a plugin for wordpress called Wisechat.
SuperMario
@Niello: yeah, Juuni caught me off guard this week. The production of Juuni is unfortunately shaky, but well, strong writing can save the day
Niello
Btw is this chat still Chatango?
Niello
This week episode of Juini is surprisingly good compared to how the show usually is with its backstory. Although the part where Ox tries to explain to Tiger could definitely use some visual buff.
SuperWooper
in the future*
SuperWooper
Pretty cool that Juuni Taisen had that kind of emotional heft this week, though. Might be one of the 2017 shows I sample the in the future.
SuperWooper
I think the occasional comments with an episode title and nothing more come from people who mistake the shoutbox for a search bar.
SuperMario
@Anon1614688: juuni taisen... made me tearing up this week. Honestly didn't expect that. Damn you, Tiger
Anonymous1614688
juuni taisen
Amagi
Had some complaints regarding Children of Whales but the latest two episodes were pretty good.
Amagi
@Anon: You explained it better than me.
Anonymous1614307
Kaiser: I actually have the exact same opinion of Natsume and Mushishi. Both are excellent, but Natsume just does a great job with a small core cast and a very simple premise
Anonymous1614456
who likes naruto
Kaiser-Eoghan
Mushishi does have good stories, but it was always a manga I'd dip in and out of, on and off for years, never marathoning it, wheras Natsume was easier to read several chapters of in one go.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think its because Natsume has more pathos.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*more than
Natsume weirdly ended up becoming this comfort manga for me with a higher consistency rate .
Kaiser-Eoghan
I will state that I hold the terrible opinion that I like Natsume Yujinchou than Mushishi but at the same time completely recognize that Mushishi is probably the more ambitious, better show.
Niello
So it becomes a cycle of "this is an interesting set up" (except that the new Kino isn't even good at that) and then they fucked up or Kino/Shizu fucked them up even more, then move on. Without the emphasis on philosophical nature of the set up they present like in the original Kino, there really isn't that much point to it.
Niello
With the new Kino it's more about messing people up, occassionally observing and hardly ever improving. The anwsers or solutions to the problem they present is never really talked about in a rational way.
SuperMario
@Anon1614318: maybe you should give the old Kino a try. What I don't like most about the new version of Kino is that both Kino and the new guy are sketched as hero. The old Kino manages the tone right as well. There were some really dark tales and most of them thought-provoking. Can't say the same for say...Country of Cooking
Anonymous1614318
I don't know, it might be interesting to actually dig deep into the differences between episodic series with this kind of style to see what works and what doesn't.
Anonymous1614318
I guess it's a matter of the chapter they chose to adapt were not really the better ones but the ones where the protagonist is more of an active role. Not totally against that, but it feels like the protagonist is just OP all the time. At least with Mushishi Ginko isn't able to save everyone all the time.
Anonymous1614318
I guess it's supposed to be more allegorical, but most of the time the allegory is not really meaningful enough. I thought it would be more along the lines of Mushishi, which is kind of similar in setup, but better in most other ways.
Anonymous1614318
What keeps me sticking around are some of the nice background arts and generally pleasant use of color, but admittedly most of the episodes aren't really engaging in a meaningful way. Most of the time its just Kino/Shizu show up, find out town's gimmick, then save the day. I prefer the episodes where the townspeople are more than just flat background characters.
Anonymous1614318
It's interesting to see how this new Kino season is being received from folks who've already watched the original. This is my first real exposure to Kino, and I kind of like it, but even without watching the original, I share many of the same complaints Aidan and most of the others have.
Amagi
I am also kinda sad he's just some 2* servant in fgo, but his power is special and he's physically weak, so it's understandable.
Amagi
And again, Shakespeare is just great but the character is, sadly, kinda wasted here considering how much screentime he has.
Amagi
@Aidan: Yes. Plus, maybe more characterization or background for some servants. The anime would have that time without Sieg and his romance sub plot.
AidanAK47
@Amagi, Those being remove Sieg and more Shakespeare?
Amagi
And man Apocrypha is pretty good but it would be twice as good if it had those two changes Aidan always mentions in the reviews..
Amagi
@Kaiser: I think the male in Kino was a mistake. Having two PoV sounds good, but he's basically just a male Kino, he even looks like her. Someone vastly different would have been way more interesting.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'd guarantee that sangatsu no lion would be high up, but FINALLY this weekend I'll be catching up.
Niello
@Kaiser, Ugh my phone gitched. What I meant to say was that background was unexpected. Now I see why you're enjoying CotW though.
Niello
@Kaiser, That's unexpected.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I enjoyed how outright surreal Arakawa was.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Amagi: It bothers me that they're stuffing multiple tales into single episodes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Ah, excel saga, I wonder what I would think of it now, its been years.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Amagi: I actually respect Aidan's coverage of it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Niello: Yes that edgy villain kid in COTWs was annoying though.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Amagi: I don't care much for the male character that leads some of the episodes in this new adaptation.
@Niello: Its a non-mainstream shoujo that isn't set in a school, moves at a quick enough pace and has some nice background art/chara design, I grew up on shoujo fantasy manga also so theres that.
Amagi
I mean there are parts I like. I enjoyed the first episode, and the part about the country of liars. But many other things annoy me and the last episode was the worst. I also feel like the edgy bomb loli and slapstick Kino don't fit to the rest of the show somehow. Maybe I forgot everything, but the "old" Kino felt like a better character to me somehow, this one is more faithful to the LNs though
Amagi
@Kaiser: I honestly gave up on Kino and I think it's only partly the fault of the new series. I am just so tired of how stupid most of the episodic-characters are unless their are friends of Kino, how everyone gets bent being irredeemable evil for plot's sake and how everything Kino and her friends do gets justified. Maybe I am just too old or boring for this fairy tail like moral bending.
SuperMario
Still have Night is Short review to write... i will get there. I will get there
Anonymous1612237
It's like having potty mouth characters. If you have one, it can be funny and a good comedic relief. If everyone does it, it can come out as mean spirited or trashy.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: I haven't watched A Bad Idea Gone Wrog, as for now my top priority is to catch up with 2017 anime for the Yearly summary. But I will get on to it when I have some free time
Anonymous1612237
Amagi - Chibi stuff I've seen it mainly work in anime comedies with low budgets like Those Who Hunt Elves, Ranma, Excel Saga, Arakawa Under the Bridge, Nanbaka, etc. I think if you really have to use it in a more serious anime, I think it might work if it was part of one character's gag.
SuperMario
Children of the Whales, along with Juuni Taisen, keep falling out on me. Kino is pretty a hit-or-miss at the moment. I don't mind the last episode's multiple tales though
Niello
Problem about AMB chibi jokes are that they arwn't funny in the first place nor do they have a punch line.
Niello
@Eoghan, Really surprise you put Children of the Whales so high, I'm falling behind on some shows but it is still near the bottom of my list (the absolute bottom remains Kino).
Kaiser-Eoghan
The latest Kino episode was a real slap in the face/insult, really really thought that one segement would carry on for the whole episode and be a redemptive one/getting the series back on form but then it followed it up with crap comic relief segement.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Lenlo: For now yes.
Lenlo
Droppin Mahou Kaiser?
Kaiser-Eoghan
I no longer care what Dia's gender is, no longer I will lie to myself and deem them female.
Kaiser-Eoghan
5. would be juuni taisen
Kaiser-Eoghan
My rankings for the season based on what I am following: 1. Houseki no kuni 2. Children of the whales 3. inuyashiki 4. girls last tour dropping mahou and Kino.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I don't remember Joseph being all that present from what little I read of the manga.
Amagi
Fear so too. I mean it has a bunch of good ideas and good quality and such, but it feels like it won't be much more than the magical being of the week (or two weeks) and some Elias highjinks inbetween
Kaiser-Eoghan
I still say, I've got the feeling mahou will be wasted potential that won't really go anywhere much.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Did you watch that indie film you recommended yet? Bad idea gone wrong it was called. I just finished it there, budgetary limitations and outside of Matt Jones the acting isn't great, theres a few limp/dead bits too, nonetheless it has its amusing moments here and there to make for an okay comedy that isn't all that essential but amusing enough in moments if your bored.
Amagi
Yeah I think Mahou has some pacing issues. But I also think it would work way better if it was less episodic or semi-episodic.
SuperMario
I normally don't mind the chibi stuff that much but I agree in Mahoutsukai they break the tone and pacing. Serious at one time, fluffy at another...
Amagi
@Vonter: I honestly never like chibi stuff I think. Didn't care back then but nowadays I consider it annoying. One reason is that jokes only work when they aren't pointed out but just happen, sometimes even so casually that you almost miss them. Turning everyone into a chibi for a joke makes it as fun as repeating, explaining or shouting it again (which many series also do)
KTravlos
I have to give it to Altair. It got me reading the manga. The episode this week did skip over a whole manga story, but to be frank it is not too much of a loss. Pacing issues still exist. One thing I noticed was a degrading in animation. They are probably hoarding for the next two episodes which are the major battle.
Anonymous1611511
Just dropping my 2c here: Isn't it too late for the studio to correct such inherent design issue once eps start rolling out?
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Angel: The dub wasn't all that impressive in the first place however.
Angel
When Will fate/kaleid liner prisma☆illya 3rei dub come out?
Vonter
The chibi stuff sadly, is like watching someone make the same mistake over and over again, without acknowledging that thing isn't coming across well. At this point it seems like an intentional choice rather than just cutting corners. Kinda like when an anime has a decent dub but has that one character with a really annoying voice.
Lenlo
Its continued this willful ignorance, this virtual refusal, to actually address the issue. Thing about the chibi is, the first scene with Silver worked. Then it just got overused.
KTravlos
Mahoutsukai continues denying itself. We finally had some tough questions asked, but the show just ignored them in the 2nd half (with generous doses of chibi). That said Elias true form is terrifying.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: If you enjoy The Scent of the Green Papaya and Cyclo, you can also check out his unofficial third film about Vietnam: The Vertical Ray of the Sun, which is about the modern day of Hanoi. It's my favorite film of his, although I know that artistically it can't compare to his earlier films
SuperMario
And I can say the mafia aspect of Cyclo is more like Hong Kong than Vietnam. But, whatever. I like this one well enough
SuperMario
@Kaiser: I particularly love the score in Cyclo. No wonder later on Tran Anh Hung asked Joony Greenwood from Raidoohead to score his films. His score has the same uncomfortable feeling with this one
Kaiser-Eoghan
I would have watched an entire story based around that old man in the new Kinos journey episode.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Though while I never found it boring, it did feel it could have had a better narrative.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Cyclo I felt has some reasonable sketched characters and the aesthetic sells the viewer on the environment the characters are living in, Tony Leung was my favourite in it, I also like how some Asian films are able to mix quietness with moments of violence, makes it much more visceral.
SuperWooper
I'd lean towards weirdest thing you've ever seen. It's certainly up there for me.
Masky
...I can't figure out whether Sengoku Jidai with batman is weirdest thing I have ever seen or makes completely perfectly sense and was inevitable it would happen
K-Off
The map design should've been vastly more different, I'd love to hear why they thought it was worth it to keep the same maps as Gaiden. So. Much. Open. Fields.
K-Off
Finally got to playing Fire Emblem Shadow, and 15 hours in I'm already not a fan of the gameplay. The story is vastly superior to Gaiden, but it looks like it missed the point on how to make a good remake. The maps are just as god awful as in Gaiden and for it, (in hard mode) it feels like a game of numbers rather than strategy.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I feel drama need not always go for emotions in the audiences but can be effective in a solely cold observational sense and approach.
SuperMario
haha you don't need to spy you know. Like I said Discord chat has been active lately. I find myself more comfortable chatting in there for some reasons.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I spy on the discord chat sometimes
Kaiser-Eoghan
Worried about this Junji itou adaptation thats coming up, hope it isn't one of those zero animation web-short series.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: he still has Flashmob in which he intended to make. Yeah, he started his career quite late but he has had a very successful career
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Potentially could be his last film, he is quite old.
SuperMario
Agree that Happy End has many quirkier moments compared to his other works. Still a solid work but I won't rank it amongst his best
SuperMario
@Kaiser: Watching Happy End, you can immediately realize many of Haneke's favorite themes: the voyeur/camera in Benny's Video, Cache; the latent racism like you mentioned, the idea that killing someone you love is better than watching them suffering, the underlying violence in a normal middle class life in most of his works
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Like with code unknown, its approach to latent rascism is far better handled than for example a terrible hollywood oscar bait drama would handle it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I felt though had the film been a bit longer, Huppert and Jones could have gotten more scenes, same with Franz Rogowski's character.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I did however think that the disjointed nature of the earlier parts were both to the advantage and disadvantage of the film. But it delivers a killer of a last act that I loved.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I finally got around to seeing happy end, I liked the Cache and amour references and how Haneke cheekily managed to insert quirkier moments and even wry ones so seemlessly into the narrative. Fontaine ,Kassovitz and Tringnent had the best scenes, particularly the ones between Fontaine and Tringnent.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Physical, non-verbal communication is a far more valuable way of conveying information I believe and more effective in fiction.
SuperMario
Report on Just Because so far: they took on the three-way romance direction, which I initally ain't fond of. But last episode actually was great with the focus on body gestures and natural dialogues, delivering one of the brst exchange the show has this season. A good watch overall
Lenlo
Sadly, the only anime youll probably get like that will be made outside japan, like Castlevania was, and wouldnt be considered "anime" by most of the community. A shame, cause Castlevania was great.
Lenlo
A classic western would be cool. Like Red Dead the anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But I am just coming up with fantasizing now.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Even a Raymond Chandler style of story.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'd also love to see a non-scifi western anime get made now or even an east meets west thing with cowboys AND samurai in it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Thats a good example Vonter I guess but I probably should have been more clear/clarified that what I meant is that I wanted to see more noir anime being made NOW , I want netflix to back one . I mean the kind of thing where everyone is wearing fedoras and trench coats and its 1930/40/50, shadows everywhere or it looks impressionistic.
Vonter
Kaiser-Eoghan - Monster is a very grounded detective like story. The villain is good and intimidating, some moral dilemmas are poignant and despite being animated I remember it having good direction of photography since the story takes place Germany, Prague, and some other places.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I've only seen bits of wolf rain many years ago, never bothered with it further after hearing the pacing is terrible and it makes an unsatisfactory ending even less worth waiting for.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Ah, but I mean without science fiction elements.
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