Posted by psgels on 12 November 2009 with categories: Umineko no Naku Koro ni



Whoa, the CG Shaders have found Umineko at last. I have to say, that now that the properly shaded characters actually look pretty good. That’s the thing with Studio Deen’s graphics: it either looks really good or really bad. There’s hardly any in between.

Anyway, this episode rounds off the second part of Ange’s background. We learn that she’s not only revived Maria, but also she attempted to train as a witch, which eventually went wrong. On top of that, Maria is also revealed to be not just a witch, but also as Beatrice’s ally. Which does at the moment make no sense because I have no idea on whose side Maria truly is. If it is true that magic even existed in the first arc, it would explain her strange behavior there: she indeed was on Beatrice’s side, and merely enjoyed Beatrice’s little game a bit too much.

The question of course remains: if this is true, then what was up with her in the subsequent arcs? And I think that that’s where the real killer comes in. My guess is that as a little kid, she knew Beatrice and she really believed that whoever was behind the murders was Beatrice. This worked in the first arc because she was one of the people that the killer apparently let live (or at least, killed the last), however in the subsequent arcs (especially the third) she wasn’t as lucky and realized that someone other than Beatrice was on a killing spree.

I really suspect that Maria is able to remember every single arc. That would explain her huge change in character, and more importantly why she was able to write down every single detail about all of the arcs so far. It’s a bit of a mystery how she ended up writing about her own death, but again: at this point we have no idea exactly how much influence magic has in the real world. The witches must have been able to use illusions: otherwise people would not have been able to see them, and if magic really was the culprit then it doesn’t make any sense that it completely disappears once the magic scenes are over.

Lambdadelta comes with an interesting twist at the end, although I don’t think I fully understand it. She mentions how, when Battler wins the game he gets sent back to 1986, not 1998. However, doesn’t that mean that Ange still gets to meet her brother, only his 30-year-old version? Or did she mean that Meta-Battler gets sent back to the dimension he came from, while the other Battler simply remains dead? After all, it actually seems that Battler survived in the second arc. I’m actually pretty interested to see what happened to the Ange of that world.
Rating: * (Good)

29 Responses

  1. Deus says:

    @psgels: “Lambdadelta comes with an interesting twist at the end, although I don’t think I fully understand it. She mentions how, when Battler wins the game he gets sent back to 1986, not 1998. However, doesn’t that mean that Ange still gets to meet her brother, only his 30-year-old version?”

    It means even if Battler wins, the Ange standing right there at that moment (the one who grew up without a family) will not be able to get her family back. Solving the mystery wont undo the past. A *different* Ange may be able to grow up happily, but it won’t be her.

    For Ange, this means she’s basically fighting the fight for another another version of herself, and even if she wins she has absolutely no reward. Her family is gone whether she wins or loses.

  2. Kincaid says:

    I don’t watch this show but your mentioning the CG making the show look better made me look at the screenshots again.

    That looks like an ungodly amount of brightness/bloom o__o

  3. Westlo says:

    “After all, it actually seems that Battler survived in the second arc.”

    He got torn apart and eaten by goats IIRC, same with Kinzo.

  4. chounokoe says:

    What Lambda meant was, that the Battler of the game which is won will go home and meet his sister again…what happens to his meta-self remains unclear now.

    It is similar to what was explained in Higurashi’s Saikoroshi-hen, of course every world continues to exist and FurudeRika’s consciousness changing the fate of one(!) Furude Rika won’t change the fact that every arc we’ve seen so far leaves the characters destroyed, dead or worse.

    One additional thing that maybe was a bit hard to notice in the anime, because it was only mentioned briefly, but the content in Maria’s diary which was written by Beatrice in the scene in Kuwadorians garden is similar in handwriting to the two letters that were found and described the scenario of Episode 1 and 2…which is strange, isn’t it?

  5. soavifox says:

    Ex, thanks for the links. it was nice to see an extended version of that scene basically.

  6. Taiyaki says:

    @psgels

    “… and more importantly why she was able to write down every single detail about all of the arcs so far….”

    It was shown in this episode that Maria COULDN’T have written the bottle letters.

    The handwriting from the letters was similar to Beatrice’s handwriting (or at least, the person who wrote on Maria’s diary and referred to themselves as “Beatrice”), not Maria’s. This person basically wrote all of the letters and then signed them as “Maria Ushiromiya”.

  7. Marion says:

    It should be made clear: The only time any has EVER survived was when Eva lived in the conclusion of EP 3 and made it out alive. Otherwise no one on the island has ever made it out.

    As far as Maria knowing whatever happens I have doubts of this myself. It’s not the same as it was with Rika in Higurashi – Rika had died over hundreds of times, which is why she knew the general outcome of any situation. Just because Maria is Beatrice’s friend doesn’t mean she knows what happens, especially if you go the ‘magic isn’t the culprit’ route.

    As far as the details of each arc Maria DID NOT write those letters. Otsuki (the guy Ange talked to) recognized the handwriting to be the same as Beatrice’s signature. That means Maria’s Beatrice and the one who gave Sakutaro a ‘human’ form is the one writing down the endroll of each arc and signing it in Maria’s name.

    Lambda’s explanation of Bern’s promise is like this: If Battler wins this game (the current one) then he won’t go back to the Ange of EP 3 (“Gretel”) but rather will go back to the little 1986 Ange of EP 4. Ange (our Ange) never had a chance of getting Battler or her family to return to her, which is what Bern had basically told her what would happen. So Bern lied to Ange.

  8. Deus says:

    @ Marion

    Technically, Bernkastel didn’t lie about anything. She never promised anything in the first place (“I can’t make any promises). And as the Witch of Miracles, you could say that miracles are miracles because they *don’t* happen.

    Bern herself stated she was the “cruelest witch” the first time we see her. She’s been upfront from the start that she is *not* a nice person.

  9. Camario says:

    I don’t know about that, for me it came across as if Bernkastel had kept Ange out of the loop, but this revelation doesn’t make for a direct contradiction. In fact, in retrospect it would have made sense for Ange to reach that conclusion on her own.

    Anyway, the episode was slow and not very exciting, but I thought it was interesting enough in spite of that and the slightly confusing jump between different points in the chronology of events.

  10. Frost says:

    So they are playing with dimensions now… I can see it already, quantum physics will explain magic, that must be it -.-

  11. Marion says:

    @Deus: Very true. Still I guess Ange was just a bit shocked, because Bern told her that if she suceeded there would be a chance of her getting her family back when in reality there was NEVER a chance.

  12. soavifox says:

    I don’t think Bern lied at all. She meerly omitted part of the truth. Its true, that if battler wins, she’ll get her family back. However the her that wants her family back will no longer exist. She’d have to sacrifice herself to save herself that pain of speration.

  13. Zaric says:

    It seems like once Battler stepped off the game board and into the meta word that he became something more than human. This is clearly evidanced with his return in the second arc after getting ripped part by goats.

    I’m guessing that like Eva and Eva-Beatrice or Maria and the Witch Maria… Meta-Battler is a wizard, warlock, sorcerer, or some mythical incarnation the human form. The fact he denies magic doesn’t change the fact he’s existing in the mythic realm, as opposed to the real world.

    I’m betting if Batter did win the games once and for all that his piece in the game would live on and get off the island alive, however the meta version of him, that him that exists in the mythical realm would most likely persist in that form.

    What I figure from the ending twist is that Ange can never return to the past and become that little girl again. Even if a new time-line is created, her magical nature, being Ange-Beatrice, will simply witness the changed timeline from a third person prospective.

  14. Reltair says:

    If you stop and start thinking about it, this series can easily become very confusing. Just when I think I know what’s going on, everything changes.

  15. Viewer says:

    There’s something else about Maria; remember in the third game, when Eva-Beatrice confronts Rosa and Maria outside? Even though Rosa obviously saw Eva, Maria didn’t seem to recognise the person standing before them, even before Eva-Beatrice revealed her true form. In fact, Maria only knew that it was “Beatrice” standing before them when the witch announced her own name.

    Any theories how this could be?

  16. Deus says:

    @ Viewer:

    A few theories:

    a. “Beatrice” is the culprit. That is, the person having tea with Maria in the flashback, wrote in her diary, and gave Sakurato human form is the killer in act 3. This can be any person (a playmate, perhaps? Shannon, Jessica look suspicious). Said person may not really be magical, but Maria believes them to be. The way they were killed is false, like Beatrice and Virgilia’s fight scene, and was done via mundane means.

    b. “Beatrice” was there, but was not the culprit. Same as A, but Maria sees “Beatrice”, and is quickly killed by another person. This is symbolically supported in the fact that while Beatrice may *represent* a culprit, *Eva Beatrice* is not the one Maria is friendly with. I.e. Maria may be friendly with *a* Beatrice, and this person may be a culprit, but Eva-Beatrice is another culprit acting as Beatrice and is not “her” Beatrice. This would apply if any culprit is *symbolically* Beatrice.

    c. Don’t trust the scene. Or the scene could be a lie.

    d. The scene went exactly as it did.

  17. kettobase says:

    the message in a bottle thing seemed like a big revelation from this episode… the two messages in a bottle from 2 different arcs/games both appeared in Ange’s “real future world”

    …it makes it seem like magic is real and whats happening is exactly what the witches say-they’re playing games where they continuously repeat the events on the island in different ways… so time on the island is being repeated over and over while the outside world’s time just keeps going

  18. kettobase says:

    forgot to say… that if that were true it would also explain why Bernkastel could bring the older version of Ange into the “past”/game and would also sort of mean what Lamdadelta told Ange was just a bluff

  19. Deus says:

    Or it could mean a human culprit is imagining their murders beforehand, and the previous arcs are their “stories” of how it would go.

  20. tadam says:

    I’ve never seen a reaction from psgels in the umineko comments section :P

  21. Viewer says:

    @Dues

    It probably wasn’t Jessica or Shannon in the third game who committed the murders; while it’s used by witches, the red truth is fundamentally the closest thing we have to knowing what is actually happening on the island.

    One of the specific things that Eva-Beatrice confirmed was “Jessica Ushiromiya didn’t commit murder”, which brings us to the real kicker; Dr. Nanjo was killed at pointblank range by a person, who wasn’t Jessica or Battler, but Eva (the only person on the island who actually survived the incident) was with Battler the whole time. Obviously, drugs could have been used on Battler, but that is a somewhat abused argument as it is, isn’t it? Perhaps Eva was hypnotized, her controller using her greed and anger to make her act on his/her whims?

    And I’d like to omit what I mentioned about Maria before; she’s young, and Eva could have simply been acting strange enough for her not to recognize her aunt over the matter, or the person could have disguised themself as Eva (I’d like to point out that the marks on Maria’s neck show she was strangled with on hand, and it would have to be an adult’s too). Simply put, Rosa used Eva’s appearance, while Maria used her behavior, to try and recognize the person in the garden. Unlike in the other arcs, it’s become fairly obvious that at least one murder on the island was committed by Eva in the third game; the problem is in finding out if she did them all, which ones she did other than Battler, if any, or simply if she was acting as a puppet for the “Beatrice” entity (I don’t mean supernatural entity, I’m just using that word in place for a gender specific identifier). My theories for the scene I talked about are;

    A: “Beatrice” used Eva’s clothing in an elaborate disguise that Maria saw through while Rosa didn’t.
    B: It was actually Eva in the garden, while Hideyoshi was out smoking, drugged, or otherwise unaware of his wife’s actions.

  22. FaS says:

    :( I dropped this show due to time issues, but want to pick it back up. Judging from you getting all the way to episode 20, I suspect it’s pretty legit ;D Anyways, nice blog! I’ve been keeping up w/you since last summer. Great detailed posts. Mind if I add you to my blogroll?

  23. Deus says:

    @ Viewer:

    There’s a fundamental error, in that equating Beatrice = murderer, when in fact a character can *play* Beatrice without killing anyone at all, satisfying the red truth. As I stated, there may even be multiple Beatrice’s: “Maria’s” Beatrice, her benefactor whom she plays tea parties with, and “murderer” Beatrice, who kills everyone, or any combination in between.

    The problem with Eva as the culprit in part 3 is that she’s way too obvious. They practically spoonfed that answer to us. Which means she, as the main culprit (aside from her murder of Battler, which may have been motivated by fear, in suspecting Battler as the murderer ala “Wolf and Sheep” puzzle), is most likely wrong. Same for Rosa in part 2.

    My personal suspect? Nanjo. That is, Nanjo in collusion with a person (or persons) he previously proclaimed as “dead”. As a doctor, he’s usually the first and only person to examine the bodies, and there is no guarantee on what he says except his word. He’s *very* suspicious, in ALL arcs. Said person then kills him to keep him quiet, then simply leaves, leaving Eva to wander to Kuwadorian.

    Who’s the killer then? Somebody who we think of as dead earlier in the arc, but was never announced in red.

  24. psgels psgels says:

    tadam: lol, I just like to read the different theories that you guys are all posting. If I have any issues with them, I usually subtly include this in subsequent posts.

    FaS: sure, go ahead. :)

  25. Sacchi says:

    I and some other people discuss the episodes of Umineko on a forum. I thought you could be interested in reading my post about this episode. Check the very last part for something I noticed regarding what you said about Maria having been killed in the third game.

    Just for the note, I haven’t played the games, so if I happen to come across something that’s true, 1) Don’t tell me. 2) Don’t delete this post for spoilers, since this is only what I’ve noticed. Ok, here it goes:

    Let’s see…we now know that Beatrice’s name is Beatrice Warugiria, although I’m not sure if we already knew this, or if it serves for anything. Just wondering, do wives in Japan get the last name of their husband like in USA? ‘Cause that would mean that Beatrice was never wive of Kinzo, although the possibility of her being his secret love stands.

    Also, I didn’t quite understand something. I don’t get japanese, so please excuse me. But did the episode just reveal that the letters that were supposedly written by Maria were actually written by Beatrice’s master (totally forgot her name)? It would make sense. When the guy recognizes the letter, they clearly focus on the letter type at the end of the page. We also see that the letter at the end of the page is completely different to the one that is written in most of the page. Checking the book scene again, we clearly see that it is Beatrice who starts writing, and then Beato’s master finally writes something at the end of the page, which is what the guy in the restaurant finally notices.

    Now, there’s two possibilities. Either Maria is a nice ally of Beatrice and that explains why she wasn’t killed before, or Beato’s master is clearly trying to trick Ange and Battler with her acting as Maria. After all, we did know that it wasn’t Maria who wrote the letters and put them in the whine bottles, and we know that Beato’s master has always been an ally of Beatrice, since she helped Beato trick Battler with all the Evatrice thing. That would mean that Ange and Maria ARE indeed good friends, but the Maria and Beatrice that we saw in the “black space for witches only” were Beatrice and Beatrice’ master. Since Beatrice master clearly supports Beatrice, that’s why “Maria” says “I’ve got a power that you don’t have Ange, and that is magic.”

    My current theory is that in this episode we saw both the real Maria witch and the false Maria. False Maria in the whole “black space” scene, true Maria in helping Ange get better with her powers by calling the 7 sisters. Still not sure about the Maria in the tea party in secret garden, ’cause that was just weird. For one side, you’ve got that whatever happened there clearly was written on Maria’s diary. On the other hand, it could have just been a trick, or possibly Maria met the true Beatrice, the one that we were shown that fell off a cliff and died.

    Or, assuming that witches don’t exist at all, we send this episode to a very, very far away corner in our minds and ignore it :D

    EDIT: Quit the censoring! I freaking want to see halloween sweets in people’s stomaches xD

    EDIT2: Ok, just thought of something. First, I started thinking why Maria got killed in the third game “peacefully” by Beatrice. Then, I realized that all that was a freaking illusion. And then, I realized that 3 games have happened so far, yet there are only 2 letters describing the events of the third game…

  26. ebisu says:

    Well i think here starts to play the two basic or usual time theories, usually incompatible with each other. One is that everything you change in the past will affect your future and actually change your present, and the other is that changing the past will create a parallel dimension where events go a different way, but it won’t affect your present.
    And so the bottles are fact that there is going on a change on the present that results in a different order of the events later. So my guess is that Lamba is lying like a witch(she says the most convenient truth for her) and Ange has still the chance now that she is out of the chessboard.

    Also about Maria, the events in this fourth arc seems to have changed because of Kawamura/Virgilia awakening in the third arc. Warugiria is awakened since the start of this story now so it is natural that magical events, like Sakutarou and Maria’s, happen in a different order.
    For my theory, now we know that everything that happens in a chessboard will have consequences in the next one, even if you reset the game. That explains why the killers change maybe. And just to say, if Battler wins Ange could end in her body of 6 years knowing all about the witches and enjoying her happy ending.

    Finally, Kinzo has died all 3 times being burnt to death so he might have been really dead since the beggining, though his fucking ring is the clue to resolve a lot of the murders. Note also, the writing of the two letters is the same so the job’s done by the same person. So if it is not Maria the writer then one assassin in first and two arcs is the same person and survives till the end.

  27. Lloyd says:

    Hey, Long time reader First time poster. Can I just say that this blog is what keeps me coming back to Battler and his one sided war against magic? You really help clarifiy points I might have missed.

    And speaking of which:

    Remember everyone, according to battler’s theory in the last arc, one of the six people who died in the key switching locked rooms on the first twilight was the killer too. There may have been two killers in the last Arc. (Which may even be the one who was responsible for George and his dad’s death, if Eva was his/her accomplice.)

    Wait… sudden thought… Did beato say in red text that each one of the twilight deaths were actually.. you know… dead?

  28. Deus says:

    @ Lloyd:

    Yes, all characters killed in the first twilight were stated dead in red.

    What *does* raise red flags, however, is the failure to state Kyrie, Rudolph and Hideyoshi dead (Ronove starts, but never finishes). So a case can be made that an original murderer started out with the usual “kill 6 people plan” as per the first 2 arcs, screwed up along the way and got themselves killed, and one of those 3 people not stated in red (plus or minus a few accomplices) took up the slack in murdering for the rest of the arc.

    What’s more, if we take magical events as symbolic of events as they happen in reality, only distorted, then it makes even more sense. Beatrice effectively gives up an active role in events after the first twilight (the original killer taken out of the equation), and replaced with *another* magical representation: Eva Beatrice, symbolizing another individual or set of individuals carrying out the murders.

    This “murderer set 2” may be *triggered* by “murderer set 1”, but is not related to it otherwise.

Leave a Reply

CHANGE USERNAME
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I haven't read the lesbian experience one.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Love my life was another good one, a serious shoujo-ai manga.
Anonymous1829213
That's unfortunate. TvT
Anonymous1829200
no thanks
Anonymous1829213
In the future though, I'd like to see something exploring sexuality as a whole even further. Even LGBT in and of itself implies a gender/sexuality binary. Let's get into the gender neutral/fluid, pansexuality, and so on as well. :.D
Anonymous1829200
and i like the
Anonymous1829200
i have one
Anonymous1829213
And I definitely agree - those manga exist and are excellent. ^_^
Anonymous1829213
*Shimanami
Anonymous1829213
And in regards to the celebrities themselves acting flamboyant or playing into stereotypes, why do you think those are the ones who are famous? They are allowed to be, because they paint a comical picture that is more easily accepted by the public. This is why Hourou Musuko and manga like Shiranami Tasogare/My Lesbian Experience with Loneliness are so amazing by painting people as actual humans
Kaiser-Eoghan
There ARE good shoujo-ai manga of course, girlfriends, aoi hana and yaoi like haru wo deiteita.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@CoolerAnon: I notice that bisexuality isn't much addressed in these things , the coming out thing doesn't often come into it.
Anonymous1829213
@Other Anon: You might add that a lot of those shows also perpetuate some pretty extreme stereotypes and male light of other of serious issues (i.e. the perception others have of LGBT people and that LGBT people have towards themselves, the experience of coming out, etc. etc.)
Kaiser-Eoghan
By lol coincidence he seems to have also voiced a pokemon character too.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*re-incarnation of, not evolved
Kaiser-Eoghan
Totally based, hilarious guy to, once claimed jokingly in an interview he was the evolved form of pikachu.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: There is a view of the transvestite as a "silly joke character" even in live action media there thats connected to homosexuallity but I'd say in most cases the person themselves is into it, Akihiro Miwa, famous Japanese gay actor played up that flamboyant drag act since the 60s.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: That is well known to me. Also its seen as anti-conform and I heard that the teachers don't know what to do when people are bullied over it, some of them think its down to mental illness.
Anonymous1829154
How japanese media portray lgbtq issues is a problem to this day. Sure shoujo, gender bender, and yaoi genres are mainstream, but at the end of the day people are expected to eventually "grow out of it" and find heterosexual partners in the end. Pretty patronizing
SuperMario
Oh shit, I didn't realize I put Wandering Children instead of Wandering Son in the title. Thanks for pointing that out Kaiser
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Shuu, mai precious lil' Babbu *hugs*
Kaiser-Eoghan
lol Okadas best anime work cause she didn't really write it lol
SuperMario
I will read on the manga to see how these kids growing up. Boy do i love this cast
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I suppose thats fair enough.
SuperMario
@Aidan: yeah, I know I stretched that image a bit but for some reasons I was goddamn hard to find an image for Wandering Son that I liked. Will make a slideshow later today to see if it looks better
SuperMario
@Kaiser: yeah I call them by their physical gender because at that stage, they haven't come out yet, right? If I remember correctly, Shuu still regards himself as "boku" rather than "watashi"
Kaiser-Eoghan
I guess this amuses me mostly because theres a jokey line later on in the manga where the girl with shu says "Ha, guess this makes me a lesbian"
Kaiser-Eoghan
There has been some theory/suggestion that Doi is attracted to shuu seeing shuu's femininty, seeing shuu as a woman .
Kaiser-Eoghan
Later in the manga Takatsuki stops having these feelings toward masculinity, which is addressing adolescent confusion.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Sorry about this really hope I don't come off as trying to start anything/an arguement/coming off as an asshole here.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Whats really interesting about hourou musuko is that in addition to Takako Shimura being a Lesbian , by choosing a mtf character as the protaganist and with shuu's relationship with a biological woman later in the manga, she is dealing with an even more interesting issue of whats called by Lesbians as Trans-lesbianism.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Transexual, mtf or ftm are probably the more accurate words to use as transgender also includes transvestite which is a different thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Its a very good review though, you don't have to change anything I'm probably being overly anal about it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Was wandering Children chosen instead of wandering son to avoid suggesting pronouns in the title? But then the text of the review uses shuus physical rather than psychological gender. I'm not preaching or asking for changes or complaining, I just found this somewhat contradictory.
AidanAK47
Oh Tomogui Kyoushitsu? That is a weird death game manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*Checks manga cover* Goes in expecting bondage manga *its a cannibalism horror manga instead*
Kaiser-Eoghan
Probably just me, but I feel the top two pictures should have a gap between them.
AidanAK47
I would recommend replacing the top image of wandering son. Cause you killed the quality of it by stretching it. Never stretch an image.
Lenlo
Id recommend some kind of slideshow or something Mario. For me, its a big sudden blob of images. But thats just me.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I wouldn't deny a single criticism of the Junji Ito adaptation, and yet despite it all it works for me , I forgive it because the imagination goes such a long way with me, I don't even mind that some of them aren't fully developed either, don't need things to be too tidy or explain everything.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Eh, Maverick was a fairly rubbish, thrown in villain but I liked Lunatics backstory how it linked in with the twist his father was that big hero guy mentioned at the start who ended up becoming a washed up mess.
SuperMario
And I won't take "No, you don't need these pics at all" for an answer
SuperMario
Guys, should I put the 2 arts back-to-back at the begin of the post like this, or should I use slideshow?
Anonymous1828545
Travlos here: 91 Days was not too bad.
Anonymous1828545
Travlos here: Thanks for those two historical manga's head-up.
Anonymous1828434
Akumestu soo satisfying to read
Anonymous1828321
Thank you
Lenlo
A shame. Kokkoku had the first truly dull episode this week. Suppose one had to come eventually, but this one was mostly an info dump.
AidanAK47
Like lightning, I strike. Junji Ito is basically interesting ideas with deeply flawed execution. It's not scary, doesn't really capture Ito's style and the animation is bare bones. While the stories themselves can have there interesting points, they are often not fleshed out enough. Honestly I am getting rather bored with it.
Lenlo
Holy bejesus Aidan. Nice triple post. :P

So overall how is Junji Ito? From what ive read so far, it seems pretty hit or miss on the horror/gore front. Failing to live up to the manga. I havnt read it though, so im curious what ya think
AidanAK47
Akumetsu?
Anonymous1828142
Wearing a mask
Anonymous1828142
What was the name of the manga where the main character is some superhuman high school student who goes around fighting Japanese politicians
Lenlo
On a side note, I should really start Violet Evergarden at some point...
Lenlo
"Anime is dying" is just a meme that gets thrown around because of Miyazaki.
Lenlo
Maybe. I dont think average score per year is a good metric though, as the cash ins are increasing, but I doubt the passion projects are decreasing. For instance we had /alot/ of duds this year, but people only really remember/care about the good ones of which there was a fair number. It wasnt a bad year for decent/good anime.
AidanAK47
Well yeah, but they didn't have as many Animation studios back then as we do right now. So it's not so much that we lost artistic merit but rather the number of studios cashing in on popular trends for a quick buck have increased. Even then, I am willing to put money on there being just as much harem anime in yesteryear as we have cute girls shows in present.
Lenlo
Perhaps, but I would argue those were on smaller scales, and even then, thats not so different from Western animation or movies. Just look at Warner Bros and their DC push after the success of Marvel. Every industry has those who chase successful trends, yet they arnt failing
AidanAK47
@lenlo, the thing is though that before Moe crap there was eva copy crap and before eva copy crap you had space opera crap and before space opera crap you had hyperviolet OVA crap. The industry has always tried to cash in on a popular trend.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I feel people went apeshit over, say highschool of the dead because they never saw a bunch of old B/exploitation films, thus that show was never special to me and even failed at an imitation of such.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think people getting to excited for it being unique to a single medium or for, its setting themselve up for disappointment.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I just think its incredibly limited thinking to base it all on just ONE medium, you CAN hold up anime to film when anaylzing anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Why should 91 days get a free pass just because its an anime about gangsters? Go watch a film about it instead which theres probably many of, joker game fail you as the mature spy thriller it ended up not being, who cares, Tinker tailor soldier spy exists.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I dislike this "Its unique for an anime/manga to do this, so instantly lets latch on to it, despite fact that same something is already extremely prevalent in other mediums "
Kaiser-Eoghan
Case in point 91 days and Joker game "It has adults, lets pre-rejoice before the show even came out"
Kaiser-Eoghan
I feel though because of the level of dissatisfaction with said moe shows that people are going to leap far too quickly on anything just slightly different, getting their hopes up too high and end up feeling let down.
Lenlo
That, or it all comes crashing down around our ears. With stuff like Houseki no Kuni and Made in Abyss from last year however, I think its going to be ok. We are just getting inundated with crap right now.
Lenlo
I do think that some of the artistic part of it has been lost, its gotten diluted in the never ending river of Moe crap. But that doesnt mean its gone. Just harder to find. Eventually all the random moe shows no one cares about will fail and stop getting made. But the anime audience will still be around, to enjoy the better stuff thats left.
Lenlo
Same thing happened in the mid/late 90's and early 00's to American cartoons.
Lenlo
Eh, I dont think anime is dying. Changing no doubt. Its going through a rough growth stage right now. It has a bigger audience than ever and people are trying to cash in on that with lots of shows that are basically the same
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Tank you and damn you for posting screencap of loli-tachibana, I now have cuteness overload a diabeetus =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
I realize thats a very minor detail to focus on though.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Thats why I can really really get into a history manga if the art is top quality, the costume designs.
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the historical thing, I have a massive I repeat massive thing for full body medieval armoured characters hacking the shit into things or just the armour in general , especially templar armour designs. I also have an little obsession with male aristocratic army uniforms from the Prussian era and world war 2.
Kaiser-Eoghan
That recent Urasawa manga Travlos mentioned is ending also
@Mario: We might get a complete adaptation of after the rain, the manga is ending.
Kaiser-Eoghan
More historical manga I found, haven't read the second one however, I didn't hear those two mentioned on here either before.
Kaiser-Eoghan
[link src="http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Hawkwood
http://kissmanga.com/Manga/Ad-Astra-Scipio-to-Hannibal"]
AidanAK47
@Anon, yes clearly you know better than everyone else on the planet despite having no evidence whatsoever to back up you claims. Thank you nameless Stranger, we owe you a debt for telling us the same thing we hear every year. Let me congratulate you by kicking you out the door.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I can generally come up with an opinion for what I follow/watch/read , but I don't really have one on kokkuu.
KTravlos
Well we watched the first episode of Kokkuku. Interesting. The ED theme is quite the fanservice.
SuperMario
@Ktravlos: If your like to check out some other shows this season then I'd definitely recommend After the Rain.
SuperMario
@KTravlos: at least Kino is thought-provoking. I can't say the same for Violet Evergarden. In fact I remain skeptical with VE
KTravlos
I am quite enjoying both Violet Evergarden and Mahoutsukai. Violet gives me similar vibes to the first Kio series, though obviously Kino was a better series.
SuperWooper
EPIC post, anon!
Anonymous1825128
Of course, as ardent fans of anime, the writers of this site would not deign to agree or even entertain the idea that their passion is no longer the same artisanal endeavor it once was.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Oh. Actually surprised I forgot about that. Yeah, when it comes to something being described as edgy I think Goblin Slayer fits that definition perfectly.
AidanAK47
@Lenlo, You can still throw down your take if you want.
Anonymous1824209
AidanAK47 - Or the women shields.
Lenlo
You know, sometimes I dont regret forgetting about this chatbox. Missing the "anime is dying" conversation? One of those times
AidanAK47
Oh, Goblin Slayer is getting an anime adaption. I was rather lukewarm on it but I wonder how the anime is going to handle the rather unsavoury aspects. Like the rape. Lots and lots of rape.
AidanAK47
I remember the last guy said he would make a chart and I thought it was a brillent idea as at least something useful could come out of this old dead horse. Then his chart turned out to be a useless jpeg with series thrown to the left or right.
AidanAK47
It does stir up conversation but it's really just the same conversation repeated. I remember stating the exact same points Nayrael and Bokusen are saying around a year ago when this last came up.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Indeed Ratings are subjective but it would at least be a general mainstream consensus of the quality of anime over the years. Not final but at least it's better evidence than one persons general assumption. And other factors are impossible to quaitify.
Nayrael
A good parody of the "Anime back then and now - what happened? meme (if the links are not blocked here): https://i.imgur.com/JZqxz6f.jpg
Nayrael
Not to mention that back in the olden days you didn't see every Anime that aired. Official translators and fansubbers selected the best stuff, which resulted in you seeing the best shows and never even knowing about the shit-tier shows.
Bokusen
I think that people who say "anime is dying" are just getting too nostalgic. It's easy to remember the hit series from earlier seasons. It's less easy to remember all the forgettable generic series that you dropped after 1 episode, and so anime tends to "seem better" back then because of people's tendency towards selective memory.
Anonymous1820731
Why are there more bad anime? Because there are more anime being made. That means the good ones are buried under the lots of bad ones. But saying "anime is dying" from that is like saying "music is dead because I don't like Britney Spears." Why does this conversation always come up, its obvious conversation bait.
Anonymous1820589
@Aidan: You are the first to obsess over the fact that reviews are subjective. And since they're subjective, looking at anime 'ratings' over time does nothing to gauge the measure of effort and artistic talent that goes into making anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which I got my answer by the way.
SuperWooper
>average review scores
What do those have to do with whether anime is "dying" or not? You'd need to look at the money.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Want to add that I agree with both you and Aidan, only brought up those two topics back there because I wanted to know what shows now will be popular in the future.
SuperMario
I'm on the side of Aidan regarding to this. For me it's not neccessary means the anime industry has become "better" or "worse", it's just that it takes new shape and trends and based on the number of anime produced, the industry isn't going down soon
AidanAK47
Am I really going to draft up a chart gathering average review scores of the past 25 years just t shut up this talk of anime dying?
But even if I did that won't toss aside this nonsense.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I know this is complete guesswork.
AidanAK47
Plus the industry is dying? Bloody hell, we got major companies FUNDING anime. Streaming services and more anime coming out that ever before. You can argue that this new anime is weaker but honestly it's just misguided. It takes time but great shows are still coming out. Just like back then.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Well thats kind of what I meant, what, when passage of time comes into it are going to end up being classic based on that, speculatively speaking.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Thats probably a much better way of phrasing it, inheriting mantles. I'm going to say that promised neverland is presently along with Titan a BIG modern shounen.
AidanAK47
Anyway my point is that the shows of the past, the so called classics, are just as flawed as the shows of today. It is only through the passage of time that they become classics. When Stein;Gate finished airing, I seen no one call it a classic. Same goes for Madoka and Fate/Zero. Now, you have people putting up the pedestals.
AidanAK47
Though if anything has inherited the Shounen mantle, it's likely Boku no hero.
AidanAK47
There is no big three Shounen and that's honestly for the best. Because in generally the declining aspect of Naruto and Bleach was mainly due to the pressure on the mangaka to put out chapters on a weekly basis. In fact it's pretty much the primary factor in Bleachs decline.
AidanAK47
Bebop is great but even it is hit and miss by nature. Doubt many remember much about the casino episode and the Alien spoof episode is likely not anyone's favorite. Eva is massively flawed but no one wants to admit it due to the massive amount of praise it receives and influence it has on the industry.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But what is the new big three shounen?
AidanAK47
If we go further back to DBZ, that has tons of issues with filler, dragging out episodes, animation shortcuts, and even complaints of it doing the same thing over and over again with it's story. No to mention the underutilised cast and the everlasting act up putting Goku on a greater pedestal.
AidanAK47
But let us dissect this viewpoint of yours. You claim the Shouen-jump canon as a great, guessing that refers to the shounen big three. But aside from One piece, the other two are emmensily flawed. Naruto is 50% filler and Bleach drops seriously in quality after soul society.
AidanAK47
Also Fate series is trash? That definitely seems aimed at me. What first series are you referring to? Fate/Zero, Fate/Stay Night 2006? Fate/UTW? The same thing over and over again? Sure each series has a holy grail war, but none of them every turned out the same. I am more than willing to admit that the spinoff series outside of the main canon are lesser. Calling them trash however is hyperbole.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Not this crap again. The old "Anime isn't as good as it used to be", how many times have I heard that over the years, and each and every time it proves more untrue.
Kaiser-Eoghan
One point I'm trying to get at is, I don't get throwing the word bad taste around when I know I was probably in the same position as that other fan years ago.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Another thing, for shows we talk up and obviously I've been just as guilty of this, how many of these am I going to be able to recite off by heart years down the line?
Kaiser-Eoghan
I don't like Madoka but thats a good example of a modern classic that'll keep in peoples minds, people still care.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*its a
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The reason I want to see a new show become a modern classic is because I'm tired of this "fleeting masterpiece" way of thinking, where I a show is super popular during the season and gets talked up as if it'll stick in the mind years on, then weeks later it disappears from memory.
Anonymous1819907
And anime watchers tend to be attracted to series that are just plain boring. The Fate franchise is case and point. The same thing over and over again. It really is a disgrace, to be honest--in my opinion. The first series was great, and I look forward to the movie. But everything in between is trash. But they still get the views, since people are sheep.
Anonymous1819907
The shonen-jump canon, shows like bebop and eva were huge in their time. The industry is just not the same--it's really dying. There isn't the same desire to blow shows up like there used to be. Shonen jump is still at it, but those shows are rarely worth watching, even if they're popular
Anonymous1819907
its a good anime, but it doesn't have the same staying power since it was not an entire industry
Kaiser-Eoghan
Sorry for the long post, I want to get people talking again here.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I would love for this to happen with, say, made in Abyss, that becoming a show that we remember decades from now and still talk about.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Something else I want to bring up, what shows do you all REALLY believe will still be talked about in the future . Bebop and Eva still come up regularly to this day, what new shows do you think will become big classics.
Kaiser-Eoghan
To base taste on things you watched ages ago doesn't really work.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I bring that up because I remember a comment somewhere I read that said, the people who trashed guilty crown, forget geass was 10 years ago and if guilty crown had came out back then instead of geass they would have embraced it instead at the time.
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the bad taste thing, I could easily say Mahouka or sword art are terrible, but back when I watched and loved code geass people where probably bashing it as overhyped shit in the same way people like to do with sword art/mahouka now.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I sure years ago I would have been all over violet evergarden.
Kaiser-Eoghan
For example most anime/manga melodrama has lost its effect on me, I hate Clannad and Kanon now and I won't watch the new code geass season because I want to crop it and death note both up to a teenage error and mistake.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And in some cases it only takes five or so years.
Kaiser-Eoghan
If not that, it’s the show no one gave a shit about that you loved or it’s a recent gem.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And it hit me, the stuff you often end up loving, becoming a measure of your true taste, in my case at least are the re-discoveries, the show you HATED or didn’t get the first time round, maybe you watched it again soon after or years later, but then it does something for you that tops anything you watched in your early days.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Then I remember theres a huge amount of big shounens I never cared for and popular writers that I never liked or if I did found somewhat overated.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Given that I’m in my thirties and have been watching anime, reading manga since I was 11, that’s led to a very very large re-watch list, something things I will NEVER get the time to go back to re-assess , for all I know they could actually be terrible series. Then there’s when I DO go back on shows and let’s face it most DON’T hold up (of course its good when they do hold up).
Kaiser-Eoghan
This has been on my back/mind for a bit now, to where I’m actually somewhat confused by this “tastes” thing in relation to myself.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Out of nowhere comment don't you think? Besides it ain't that I have perfect taste. It's just that my taste is the only one that matters.
Anonymous1819624
@Aidan you don't need to keep pretending you have perfect taste in anime. we are all aware your taste is often questionable, as all of ours are at times.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Its kind of a pity because there were moments where I saw potential in it and thought maybe this would be some kind of exception.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But to more calmly review this, I do think its possible to present topics like this, though in a more accessible way, I think even someone more versed in this would be bothered by this presentation, in addition to this manga never flowing properly, the dialogue just feels it was ripped directly from an article or book.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I suppose in all fairness, its right to say I never studied any of these subjects in much detail that it brings up and never did anything sciencey for more than two years at school so I was probably doomed from the start.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I know the expected response to what I said there is "why do you read/continue to read things you know you won't like" but if I don't come out of my comfort zone theres no chance of me being surprised.
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