Posted by psgels on 27 May 2012 with categories: Fate/Zero

The second half of this episode took some huge risks. This series has been very composed in terms of acting; with some exceptions, the acting in this series was subdued and even during the over the top parts, the characters knew exactly how to act with just enough restraint whilst still giving off great performances. This episode drops that and descends into overblown melodrama. Not just to show how a character feels, but also vital to the story.

These are the moments when a character completely loses it. They’re not meant to be pretty, they just are about characters completely breaking down and looking very ugly in the process. This is incredibly hard to act right because it’s just all too easy to scream at the top of your lungs and do the most outrageous thing out there. Another key to this is willing suspension disbelief: as a viewer we really need to get the idea that these characters have broken down. Which is why I’m a bit puzzled that the creators chose to do this with the master who has gotten the least amount of airtime to get fleshed out so far. To be honest, that breakdown scene… it didn’t really hit me and looked more silly due to how little we actually know of these two people. It also felt like there was just too little build-up and aftermath for it. Tohsaka killed the woman, walked away and immediately we switch to Archer and Kirei sitting back and having some wine celebrating. It… doesn’t flow well.

Also, an observation that I made before this all happened: in the first season, Rider really was the stand-out character: his charisma and monologues were wonderful and it brought a lot of spark to the series. In the second season… this just doesn’t apply at all. He has been weakened and beaten pretty often, with in this episode him losing his chariot, in favor of characters as Kotomine Kirei and Kiritsugu. This can be quite interesting build-up if the final episodes know how to handle it.
Rating: * (Good)

38 Responses

  1. Rachnid says:

    I believe his name is Matou Kariya. Anyway, that scene didn’t hit me as well. But the part where he place his head closely beside her instead of over her, which strangling scenes usually look like, is a nice touch.

    On a side note, Kirei’s voice has been bugging me since the first episode, I was confused for a long time trying to figure out who’s voice his belonged to while they were walking in circles. But hearing him being called Father this episode, it finally fit.

  2. JCD says:

    “Tohsaka killed the woman” – probably meant Kariya there.

    Alexander annoyed me alot as well in this episode. Charges head-on on an enemy aimlessy? How many countries did he conquer by that?

  3. yokushi says:

    Kariya was fleshed enough and he was one of the most popular Masters, it’s typical Urobuchi Gen tragedy here.

    And Rider is the same old Rider, is just that things are pretty hard and he’s being affected too. He didn’t charged head-on on an enemy aimlessy, it was a 50-50 situation and the only way he had to win Saber, so he tried. At the end, he was worried about Waver so he jumped.

    • wicked says:

      well, he was also holding back, saving his Ionioi Hetairoi for another, while Saber used her strongest phantasm Excalibur. Waver is really an inadequate magician for a servant like Rider, and he realized this last episode I believe.

      • Moriae says:

        This is why Saber won without struggle:

        a) He didn’t want to kill her, only best her. Saber, on the other hand, always aims to kill. She’s a lot more ruthless than he is.
        b) His chariot wasn’t in optimal condition. It’s in the previous episode. Clearler in the novel, that it can only fly but not really be used as full power because of prana depletion (he refuses to take from Waver and uses his own sources or the leylines. It’s Saber’s issue with Shirou in FSN, only hers isn’t willing).
        c) And yes, he ditched a chance of victory to rescue Waver (not very clear in this episode).

  4. wicked says:

    Kariya doesnt have much of a purpose in the whole Grail War, pretty much every single appearance he gets, he’s been obsessed with hating Tokiomi and and saving Sakura, and all of it stems from his unrequited love for Tokiomi’s wife which I think was established during his first appearance on the show. Literally every single one of his appearances so far has been about building up to that moment

  5. AidanAK47 says:

    I am surprised you didn’t comment on the motorcycle scene. Cause I got to say that was the best combination of CG and animation I have ever seen. It was flawless.

    On the Kariya scene, I am mixed on it. Though the problems I have with it are the exaggerated facial expressions which looked more comical than expressive and the way they made it seem that Kariya did it intentionally where as in the Light novel he did it in a fit of madness because he was pretty much mentally broken at that point. They should have shown him strained while talking to Kirei instead of talking calmly.

    Though maybe extra scenes from the Blurays would fix this.

  6. Gustavo says:

    Ryder was victorious. He evaded her trumph card without using his. If he really wanted, he could have beaten her, since she shouldnt be able to use Excalibur again so soon. But he was aware of Archer, so he restrained himself. Dont go after one prey wish so much tirst… Risk only this much, and if dont work, dont push. Ryder really is a great caracter.

    • ChocoBar says:

      Wow..talk about a server case of denial

      • Gustavo says:

        So tell me what would have happened if he did use his noble fantasm after Saber’s attack. Who do you think would win? He just didnt want to.

        • AidanAK47 says:

          Gustavo, Rider lost one of his greatest assets in a gamble that gained him nothing and now only has a trump card which can only be used once or twice more. Excalibur can recharge but that chariot ain’t coming back.

          A lost battle is a lost battle. Accept it.

  7. meow says:

    Hm….”suspension of disbelief”. Definitely felt this in many ways after watching this episode.

    Saber should have been tracking Irisviel. Not Rider specifically. Plus even though Berserker was disguised, I can’t believe that includes his presence. I’m a bit disappointed that Saber wound up tracking the wrong target.

    I’m also annoyed that Rider used his Chariot on Saber instead of going in for close-range combat. He said he had a lesson to teach Saber. That should have meant communication, the crossing of swords at close range. An epic duel that could have eventually culminated in a chariot charge. This series could use a glorious moment amidst all this dark tragedy. Instead there’s just this quick senseless charge that has no chance of being successful. No feints. No tactics. Geez, Rider’s actually seen this move in action. He should have been better prepared. And after Saber rather predictably wins, she just turns and leaves without another word. What about asking what happened to Irisviel, at the very least? Why’d she waste all that mana, including setting off her Noble Phantasm when she had a more important task at hand?

    I’m incredibly disappointed in Kariya and even Aoi losing their cools that way. Especially Aoi’s accusation at Kariya for taking Sakura from her makes no sense to me. Way before the war started, Kariya had already demanded to know from Aoi why Sakura had been handed over to Zouken. She should have known that Kariya had left the Matous and had nothing to do with it. Unless she was blaming Kariya leaving the Matous as the reason Sakura wound up in Matou hands, which is even more pathetic. And why didn’t Aoi notice that Tokiomi had been dead for awhile? Why didn’t any of them question this whole situation? Especially Kariya. Does he ever suspect Kirei’s involvement? I would have expected him to have just folded and cried. Or run away. Why attack Aoi? This is one of the most disgusting scenes I’ve seen yet. What detail there was in the scene of Kariya strangling Aoi. What a dark, evil story. This is why I refused to watch Kara no Kyoukai. I think I’m going to be very cautious of touching anything Type-Moon or Nitroplus come out with ever again. =.=

    Sigh…sorry for the rant. I’m asking myself wtf I’m doing watching this crap. I hate this kind of thing.

    • Gustavo says:

      Well, aboute Kariya: Aoi saw her dead husband and Kariya at the crime scene. She felt hatred and wanted to hurt Kariya somehow. Then, its obvious that she would start saying things to that intent, even if she knew they werent true. She just wanted to hurt him. My ex-girlfriend did it many times. Women just are like that.

      About Saber and Rider: Rider is a conqueror. As he himself explained, if he did win against Saber using her most powerfull attack, she would be conquered and would even be willing to join his army. He’s a conqueror! And Saber knew he would attack after she did what she did. There’s no excuses for attacking someone like that. “Oh, I’m sorry for trying to kill you now, Good Sir. See ya!”… This would not work at all. And, above all, she wanted to accept the challenge. And wanted to end it fast. Had she used any other trick, she would have lost the battle really fast. Rider is not to be underestimated. After seeing Rider losing his will to go any further in the battle, she just went away.

      There’s nothing so wrong with the episode. You’re just not looking with the right eyes. :)

      • sato says:

        Gustavo, your contempt for women is uncalled for. Despite what you may have personally experienced, please be aware that both sexes can be cruel.

        meow, I totally agree with your critique of this episode. How easily Saber lost track of Irisviel; the coincidence of the real Rider being in the exact same place, and how even he did not notice the fake Rider; the pointless fight despite Saber realizing Rider is not the one she’s after. The Kariya and Aoi encounter at the church was very frustrating in how eye-rollingly uninspired it was. This is in contrast with Lancer’s tragic demise, which had such elaborate orchestration.
        I’m probably most annoyed with how easily Kirei’s plans succeed, despite how much room for error they have, and how intelligent the other characters supposedly are.

        (I also have to say, Kara no Kyoukai is pretty good. It’s not really like Fate at all. The themes are more internal and touch on loneliness and self-hatred a lot. Though the first few installments are definitely better than the last.)

    • AidanAK47 says:

      Servants can only track other servants. They cannot track masters. If they could then they would know straight away that Irisviel is not Saber’s master and that her true master was hiding in the docks in episode 4.
      Berserker’s Noble Phantasm conceals everything about him. Hence why Waver couldn’t read his status at the docks. It isn’t a stretch to say this conceals his presence as well. Also Saber was focused on finding Rider…not Berserker.

      A Saber’s best skill is close combat. Fighting her with a sword is like fighting a master martial artist with fists. While it isn’t shown well here the reason she left is because she found out she was tricked and asking Rider anything about Irisviel is pointless as he wouldn’t know anything.

      It is not reasonable to expect a woman to act rationally when they just saw a man she trusted with the corpse of her husband. Aoi isn’t a forensic specialist so how could she tell that her husband was dead a while? For the most part she didn’t have any time to. Kariya’s attack is actually pretty reasonable. He is literally being eaten alive, half his body is dead and the woman he loved is screaming at him. He snapped. If anything considering everything he’s been through you should question why he didn’t go insane earlier.
      And this was your excuse to not watch Kara no Kyoukai? Come on, grow some balls. Dark stories are interesting.

      • meow says:

        Berserker’s Noble Phantasm conceals everything about him.

        Yes but he emits something that Saber can track. This isn’t the first time Saber’s run into both Rider and Berserker. Rider in particular, she’s been in close contact with on several occassions. Couldn’t she tell the difference? She should have been following the same entity from the start but got distracted by the Chariot instead. A reasonable mistake I suppose, but frustrating nonetheless considering it’s terrible consequences.

        Servants can only track other servants.

        Yes but they should also be able to sense and differential between magical auras, like bounded fields, etc. Saber displayed an unusual amount of knowledge of magic in season one when she first when to Emiya’s atelier. I would imagine Saber would have been familiar with Irisviel’s strong, unique magic signature.

        If I’m wrong, I apologize. I’m basically disappointed that Saber’s awesome Chevalier and her destroying Rider’s Chariot was the result of an unfortunate coincidence. I was also looking forward to an epic confrontation between Rider and Saber, perhaps a continuation of their war of words during the Dialogue of Kings. Rider had a point to make to Saber but it looks like he never got to make it.

        A Saber’s best skill is close combat.

        Yes but Rider is no slouch either. He may have been at a disadvantage but I daresay Saber would have her work cut out for her. A drawn out duel would have worked, perhaps ending in what we see here. It doesn’t seem like it makes any difference either way since Iris winds up in Kirei’s hands anyway but I think it would have been more epic. Instead, it feels like we got a rushed little skirmish between two parties who had no good reason to be fighting each other that winds up giving the bad guys a terrible advantage.

        To add salt to the wound, Kariya inexplicably winds up murdering Aoi in a reasonable fit of blind rage. What a way to get rid of the loose ends in the cast. I for one never knew Rin was an orphan. I knew she lost her dad but not her mom too. And what a way for her to die. I’m sorry Aidan, but watching a grieving husband and mother getting strangled to death in great detail by someone who supposedly cherished her, no matter how well it fits the story, simply does not entertain me. Especially on top of all the gut wrenching stuff that’s been happening since after Caster got taken down. To each his own I suppose.

        • Moriae says:

          Saber’s stats are better than Rider’s because of the Class and the quality of magus who summoned them. Facing her in close combat is bad.

          The only ones in this war who would be able to defeat her in a close combat are Lancer and Berserker.

        • wicked says:

          Rider was in no condition for a drawn out fight like saber against lancer, and the fact that he’s a rider shows that his talent lies else where(Shirou Archer was the only aberration in the series who had superior talents in fields other than his class designation). He had to rest in spirit form before because maintaining a physical form would use up his prana and he’s reserving it for another fight

          As far as tracking magic users, Servants can sense other servants but it’s not so much a magical radar, more like a magical motion sensor. In fact, in the novel she was visually tracking the Berserker as he jumps up and down, with periods which she cannot see, so when rider showed up again with the chariot and waver, she assumed that rider wanted to fight her full strength. The fact that Irisviel was not with him confused her, but by that time, she was already engaged in battle

          Rider was going to confront Saber anyways, the fight was inevitable

    • Mormegil says:

      “This is one of the most disgusting scenes I’ve seen yet. What detail there was in the scene of Kariya strangling Aoi. What a dark, evil story.”

      Welcome to Gen Urobuchi. No one gets a HAPPY END.

    • Moriae says:

      Aoi was hysterical in grief. So excuse her.

      Kariya’s mind and body deteriorated that he’s not really sane. The novel points out he would have done things differently if his brain was actually functional (he would have figured out Kirei is behind this). The issue with the anime is that they don’t really give credit to his state (which is so grave he’s a lump of dead flesh mobilized by magic) and the voice actor sounds too calm too when he was hysterical and his voice isn’t longer like Kariya’s.

      He didn’t attack Aoi in his mind. He couldn’t recognize who that woman was and why she was saying those things. He snaps back into reality when he notices it’s Aoi and releases her.

      • Gustavo says:

        It makes sense.

        • Moriae says:

          It always disturbs me a little how the anime makes Kariya look too pretty in his state? He was compared to a victim of a nuclear reactor explosion in how bad he was in the novels. He was nearly done for during that battle in episode 5. Anime did not give credit to how he was covered with his own blood as he staggered out from the sewers and collapsed in agony…

  8. Juno says:

    I think the problems most people are having with this episode had to do mostly with screenplay. I haven’t read all of volumes 3 and 4 of the novel yet, but if it’s anything like how the previous novels changed my perception of the first half of the anime (and the second half, for that matter), I have quite a bit of faith that Urobuchi’s excellent expository description can save scenes like this.

    On that note, I was still pretty jaw-dropped at the murder scene. Kariya did everything for Sakura and Aoi’s happiness, yet… slowly, but surely, everything he valued was taken away from him. It was bound to happen, but it’s like Kayneth and Lancer’s situation from earlier.
    Lancer was accused of seducing Kayneth’s fiancee, which is like repeating the exact same thing Lancer was trying to change about his past. And then, when he felt like all he had left was the taste of a chivalrous battle, he couldn’t even finish that. The despair led him to curse the grail like he did.
    And now, Kariya, whose only wish was to get revenge on Tokiomi and do something good for the two people he loved most in the world, is put into a situation where he has unintentionally “stolen” life force from Sakura and also “stolen” the life of his love’s husband, right in front of her eyes–at least, she saw it that way. So he felt guilty about Sakura and even though he wasn’t guilty of killing Tokiomi, Aoi blamed him for it… and that confusion and madness drove him to be “self-destructive,” which is common in Urobuchi tales about despair. If you have something you value and you’ve already lost enough of it that it seems pointless to keep the rest, why have that unstable incompleteness? Why not just get rid of it and not have to think about it ever again? It’s not exactly rational, but the stream of logic provides a temporary solace… until you realize what you’ve actually done.

    God, I’m not sure I’ll ever like Kotomine, even if I finish the Heaven’s Feel route, where I hear he’s much more tolerable…

    • meow says:

      You won’t exactly like him. He’ll just be overshadowed by a greater threat and won’t be in control the way he is here or in FSN.

      Well..one thing about this episode, it does seem to show that while Kotomine responded to Gil’s teasing with wicked words, he still seemed bored/disinterested. All the things he’s been trying all his life, including branching into all the different arms of Church service is out of the expectation of finding something that excites him and cures his boredom/lack of passion but while he seemed to be saying one thing to Archer, he seemed to look disappointed, as if the result of the confrontation between Kariya and Aoi didn’t excite him at all. He just said those things to keep Archer pleased and cooperative. Just my impression though. Hard to read those dead eyes of his. Maybe he was thinking about Zouken.

      • Rachnid says:

        I think he is just unfamiliar with anything related to feelings, his comment about how the wine tasted sold me the idea that he genuinely likes the whole sadist business.

      • Moriae says:

        From the novels:

        But if it was a development that betrayed none of his expectations – even if there were supposed to be no surprises – when he watched over it to the end, he felt a peculiar excitement.

        If it was to be named, it might be called a sense of “freshness”.

        The tragic scene just now was not a fantasy performed by actors. It was true that Kirei had guided the scene. But baring their innermost feelings, his fellow humans clashed against one another – the radiance of souls scattering the sparks was, without a doubt, authentic. While struggling to decide on an answer to Gilgamesh’s question, Kirei tasted the fragrance of the wine in his mouth again. Indeed, if it was surprise he was looking for, he was better off looking into this wine.

        “…… Why, I drank this before, and yet…… I did not notice how profound the taste of this wine was.”

        The King of Heroes smiled at Kirei who gazed at his wine glass, straight-faced.

        “The taste of a wine is disguised in unexpected forms depending on the side dish served alongside it. Looks like you have begun to understand the meaning of the phrase, ‘broaden one’s view’.”

        “……”

        Not knowing the best way to reply to the rapturous Gilgamesh, Kirei put down his empty glass and stood up. He thought about the things he was supposed to attend to later and felt that he could not afford to keep relaxing. Aoi, lying on the chapel floor, would undoubtedly require treatment. And he also had to retrieve the fleeing Kariya for his next course of action.

        Nevertheless, before leaving the room, Kirei once again glanced at the empty glass. He noticed that he felt reluctant to part with the wine, which he had finally finished.

        Earnestly, he thought – if I can taste such flavor from this wine, I would love to drink it again.

        • hoiut says:

          Good God, this is pretty dark stuff. It’s not just the anime’s fault, I realize.

          Hm.

          • Oroboros says:

            Indeed. I read the first volume and was horribly disappointed at the crass violation of the “show, not tell” rule, as well as the clumsy translation. (from the type-moon wiki website)

            This excerpt comes off much better, and more literary than straight-forward, expository. Different translation, perhaps?

  9. Tanz says:

    The tragic scene was not over the top but it wasn’t Fate/Zero’s style. I expected it to be less subtle on it. Its emotional impact is more on dialogue and quiet action like how Kiritsugu’s flashback went. I guess they went for a different style. Nothing wrong with trying but I hope they realized it didn’t fit as well.

  10. Dr. Pest says:

    Really? I found this one of the best episodes so far. The actions scenes seemed great to me and I found everything rather thrilling and emotional. I somehow find Kariya’s fate way more tragic than the one of Kiritsugu so far because of those things that happen. What I also really liked was this intriguing presence Kotomine emitted during the second half of this episode. His character developement makes him one of the most interesting characters of the Fate universe I think.

  11. Moekou says:

    The thing with Rider is that, while lots of people jumped on the “Rider is right and Saber is wrong” bandwagon due to his earlier impressive showing, the actual intention is to portray all of the kings as flawed in their vision.

    In Rider’s case, his greatest flaw is that he lets his visions of glory blind him to logic. In the past he pursued a vision for Oceanus without supporting evidence, although he was also able to turn it into a strength last episode by accepting that it was a poor decision. Here, he is once again letting his vision of his glorious climatic showdown with Gilgamesh blind him to the obvious fact that he is in mortal danger and was very likely to lose and die if he did not go all out. In fact, his decision to charge with his chariot was also part of his desire to prove his way despite self-calculated 50% odds, as he believed that by literally trampling over Excalibur (representing Saber’s ideals) with his chariot, he can make a point. Even now he’s still thinking about how great it’d be if Saber becomes his soldier when it should be evident such a line of thinking is a pointless waste of time. In a way, he is just as over-idealistic as Saber. Perhaps even more so, as at least she isn’t trying to make friends in the battlefield.

    All this makes Rider a more complex and likable character to me.

    • Moriae says:

      But Saber is wrong. That’s the entire premise of the Fate arc in FSN. This isn’t about her way of kingship. It’s about her wish and regrets.

      Rider was right in this. He was derailed because he assumed wrongly what was the root of her problems. But he could never sit down and talk things with her again (and he didn’t have Shirou’s advantage of sharing dreams. We know that without them, he never understands her anyway). Furthermore, Rider in the novels, never said a way of kingship was wrong. It was the opposite. When they met he acknowledged their differences while she remained narrow-minded. The problem with Saber is that she was a joyless person who made him sad so he saw her title as a burden for her. He wanted to save her.

  12. Mormegil says:

    “Also, an observation that I made before this all happened: in the first season, Rider really was the stand-out character: his charisma and monologues were wonderful and it brought a lot of spark to the series. In the second season… this just doesn’t apply at all. He has been weakened and beaten pretty often, with in this episode him losing his chariot, in favor of characters as Kotomine Kirei and Kiritsugu.”

    I think it has to do with the fact that Rider’s larger-than-life attitude is completely overshadowed by all the tragic and dark events taking place. There was a lot of build-up in the first 13 episodes of the series, so there was even time for Rider and Waver hijinks. Now, not so much… He truly is a likable fellow, though.

    The story’s in full swing, the ending is rushing toward us, and there’s pretty much nothing but despair ahead.

  13. kero says:

    I enjoyed the bike scene, definitely worth waiting for a higher quality
    dl

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Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: That'd be the compiliation film. I watched that based on hearing that the film version trimmed back on the shows weaker moments.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: was it the compilation film or the series itself? That scene is the highlight of that first season. I'm always a fan of KyoAni so it's very natural that I enjoy this series a whole lot.
Kaiser Eoghan
I watched the first season of sound euphonium, not much to say for it other than I liked the teacher guy and the scene where the black haired girl tells the main character that she thinks shes hiding behind a mask. Animation was as expected of kyoani good. All of those emotion shots though and some of the melodrama...
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, it does stop if you make an account.
Kaiser Eoghan
Hmmm there we go again, it delayed sending my message for longer than it should have.
Kaiser Eoghan
Anyone notice today and last night that the site has had some loading issues? I kept getting an error page for a while and it was also loading a bit more slowly. A server issue?
Lenlo
Have to say, Flip Flappers ep 5 was pretty good. I love atmospheric settings like that.
Lenlo
Looks like an Epee. The large bell guard, the fact that they are focusing on thrusting attacks instead of slashing (mostly). Fencing is alot of fun. Be prepared for some bruises though, as some people put their full body weight behind their thrusts.
SuperMario
I have one last dumb question, Can you tell what types of blade of Juri in Utena? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGsVSSUv_i0
SuperMario
@Lenlo: the more you described the more I found fencing interesting. I might take a look around my town to see if we have Fencing here (the curse of living in a small town).
Lenlo
Blades are slightly different, yes, but mostly just in their guard and how much they bend. Sabers bend easily, Epee's not so much. Surprisingly Epee is the slowest, because people tend to be more careful. Saber is actually the most aggressive of the blades, atleast at my skill level
AidanAK47
That's all they had to do. Just stay inside and let it pass. But for some weird reason they just keep panicking over nothing.
As far as time/alternate world stuff goes this was ridiculously underwhelming. Just finished another movie called triangle and now that's how you do Time travel mindfuckery.
AidanAK47
@Mario, I am not fond of movies where people make stupid decisions for no good reason. For example:
"We should just stay inside"
"No, staying inside isn't realistic"
WHY IN THE HOLY HELL ISN'T IT REALISTIC.
SuperMario
Showed that movie to a bunch of friends last year and I remembered one of the girl just shut off the movie after 15'
SuperMario
@Aidan: too bad. I found Cohenrent really funny and entertaining. Some of their twists are stupid but I was actually invested in much of their characters. Maybe because I always love movies about a bunch of characters in an isolated setting
SuperMario
@Lenlo: sounds like Epee is the most "all-out-attack" and aggressive one. Their blades are different as well I assume?
AidanAK47
Just watched a movie called coherence and man, what a bunch a pseudo-intellectual garbage that was.
Lenlo
For Right of Way, its basically Person A attacks, Person B parries, Person A hits, Person B hits, Person B gets the point because they took right of way with the parry. Saber and Foil both have that, but Epee does not. Epee is simply "Whoever hits the opponent first, doesnt matter where, whole body is target area"
Lenlo
Theres Saber, Foil and Epee. The main difference is this thing called right of way, but there are other smaller ones like how Saber can hit with the edge and Epee is allowed to hit the entire body, instead of just the chest like Foil
SuperMario
For news, Blood Blockade Battlefront getting second season next year. As it was one of my favorite last year I'm really lokking forward to this second season
SuperMario
@Lenlo: that sounds great. From what I know from fencing there are 3 different types of blade right? So what are the differences between them? (Fencing 101 here)
Kaiser Eoghan
Although a fantasy sports thing could also generate interest, such as combining sports together to create something totally new.
Lenlo
@SuperMario, Fencing was great. Favorite sport ever and it helped me stay in shape in College. I find Epee to be the best blade, mostly cause I fenced it, but its a very intense 3 minutes. Unlike sports like Soccer and such which is alot of sustained running, Fencing is 3 minutes of Dont-Stop-Moving then wait till next match. Gets really fun once you figure out your own style.
SuperMario
haha, I wouldn't mind either if each episode focus on a single sport/ character/ country. Or even the positive aspects like role models, sports inspirations and stuffs
Lenlo
That Olympic anime sounds great.
Kaiser Eoghan
And it would be a good excuse to have characters of multiple backgrounds included too.
Kaiser Eoghan
Could be an 13 episode ova series with 48 minute episodes, and if its to be an ensemble character drama you could have 10 minutes to a each character (the ones being focused on in that episode) in each episode.
Kaiser Eoghan
Ah yes, aswell as cheating it could also get into "stage parenting", "abuse", "Disabilities" and also the general politics of sports, the backroom stuff.
SuperMario
I'll be the first in line if that olympic anime ever come out. Could be interesting to see the interactions between athletes in different sports, and then fans/athletes/coaches relationship, then the gold rush, doping... So much to talk around to
Kaiser Eoghan
I don't think theres ever been a manga about hurling either. Hey heres an idea, someone do an ensemble drama anime that deals with the olympics, fit in multiple sports that way.
SuperMario
Personally I find Australian football much more exciting than rugby. Or crickets.
SuperMario
@Kaiser: ha! Interesting that you mentioned Gaelic football, because in Aus we have AFL (Australian Football League), that really similars to Gealic Football to the point sometimes we have the 2 national teams compete each other with modified rules
Kaiser Eoghan
Hmm, lets see, sport under-represented in anime? Fencing, golf , Gaelic football, bowling, boat racing.
SuperMario
Hey, fencing is actually really cool. How did you like it Lenlo?
SuperMario
You have your point there Topgavin, as I clearly remember many instances where players' legs, backs or even necks got snapped during rugby's tackles. But in regards to Rugby I never really care about it. That and car racing
Lenlo
Its mostly the type of injuries you get that differ I think. Football you get concussions and broken bones and such, while in Rugby you probably get alot of bruises and cuts. Granted I have played neither, I was a Soccer man in highschool and fencing in College
Lenlo
American football has alot of rules, and really is just a bunch of millionaires running around chasing a ball. Rugby however, as Topgavin said, has no pads so when you get hit you get hit HARD
AidanAK47
I never ceases to surprise me just how high and mighty visual novel fans can be over Mosaics present in localized games. I mean they are literally complaining about not seeing genitalia yet the way they phrase it, it's like they are fighting against great injustice. If these VNs were Nukige they might have a point but in most cases the sex scenes in question are pointless and shoehorned in.
Topgavin
@Mario Rugby is more extreme *because* it has no protective gear. No hiding behind helmets and cushioned shoulder pads when ya get bowled over.
SuperMario
@Lenlo: I'm no expert but isn't American football a variation of Rugby? And I believe american football is more extreme, considering they have to wear helmets, protection gears and all that
Lenlo
I dont think theres alot of manga about it because its simply not that popular outside the US. As far as it being a battlefield, eeeeh? Not really? You want a battlefield watch Rugby.
SuperMario
I can think of other cool sports that could be interesting to see in anime: Kick Volleyball (Sepak takraw), Bossaball (combined soccer, volleyball in a trampoline), or in the same vein of skate figures this season, why not pole dancing competition???
Anonymous504493
What other sport is cool and popular that remains original to write about by now? There isn't a lot of manga about it compared to anything else.
Anonymous504493
American football looks like a battlefield with a visible battleline and everything. Id like it if there wasnt so many darn commercials.
Lenlo
I mean, its a sport. Far cry from best, but its definitely a sport.
SuperMario
@Vonter: or maybe because american football IS the best sports ever?
Kaiser Eoghan
@Vonter: Most likely due to the middle section of the original anime being the most popular bit.
Vonter
Can someone explain me how Cobra, is apparently getting an anime around some sort of space american football? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54kNWPr43zE
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: Its not safe enough a film for me to properly recommend. Even to exploitation fans, they might find it too slow others would be too sensitive to it. Really una vita violenca, mamma roma, accatone, hawks and sparrows are what Pasolini is really about.
SuperMario
Now that you watched Salo, would you recommend the film to other people? I personally think it's a masterpiece but it's one of the title that I think people would break up with me if I show them this movie
SuperMario
@Kaiser: even him as a director, both Braveheart and Apocalypto don't do much to me, will see if Hacksaw Ridge going to change my mind (but I'm not to fond with war movies in general). La Notte is in my sooon-to-watch list for years, haha
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: Mel Gibson as a director, not as an actor =)
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: Thats why I prefer the neo-realist/quasi-neo-realism stuff as it deals with the worse off in society. But Antonioni was the master of being able to do films about angsty well-off people, L'aventura, the passenger and La notte for example
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: Its not so much that I dislike post 50s fellini moreso I feel that his throw everything at the screen and hope what sticks method can be hit or miss.
SuperMario
While I don't really mind his later stuffs because he was masterclass, I have a pretty hard time for Paolo Sorrentino's later works. The thing is I don't care much about the high class society so everything is just ridiculously over the top and glamour and I'm tired of it.
SuperMario
I haven't watched nights of cabiria but I did watch La Strada and boy, I was sad for few days after watching it. Fellini mentioned that he was inspired to make this movie when seeing a woman pushing a cart from behind. The film really carry that sense throughout its running
SuperMario
Michael Haneke put Salo in his top 10 films. Quite understandable when you think about it. Still for me one of the movie that affected me deeply.
SuperMario
I really admire Elle for its ability to maintain its sharpness because under other inexperienced directors it could easily becomes a mess. Mel Gibson, really? He's one of the few actors that I absolutely dislike
SuperMario
@Kaiser: The Red Turtle remains one of the the most refreshing time I had this year in cinema, but then again I haven't watched much films lately. Agree with you on Sonia's performance, and I still think they could cut out the first 20' of the film because it feels out of place compare to the rest of the film
Kaiser Eoghan
Debating whether to bother catching up on I am a hero or watching the film adaptation. I haven't read it since they got rid of that one female character.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: I've a feeling you'll like nights of cabiria, Fellini was cranking out some solidly effective social-realist dramas in the 50s before he fell into self-indulgence.
Kaiser Eoghan
Now I have that sound euphonium compilation film downloaded, I should get to that sometime.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: I also finally watched Salo, I ended up meeting it pretty much halfway. Some parts still retain the ability to effect a modern viewer, having seen his other works though its crazy just how different Salo is to them.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: Seeing I, daniel Blake tomorrow and rogue one in a few weeks.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: I hope Mel Gibson and Isabelle huppert win at the next oscars.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario: I liked the red turtle for its visual style of storytelling and animation even if I didn't get as emotionally attached to it as others did. I also watched Aquarius nd was pretty much blown away by Sonia Braga's performance. Elle is now one of my favourite Verhoeven films and its a miracle he managed to maintain such a great balance successfully throughout the film.
SuperMario
I don't care for the sequel of Code Geass at all. Why Spice & Wolf still hasn't got season 3 though is what really bugged me. From what I know their manga and LNs are selling very well
Anonymous494677
I wonder why that is...
Kaiser Eoghan
Ah, they were always milking code geass though what with those bajillion-million-billion manga spinoffs.
Kaiser Eoghan
Still say I was more fond of the character chemistry in spice and wolf as opposed to everything else.
Kaiser Eoghan
I'll likely pass on the code geass sequel, the memory I have of it has already led to its appeal dimishing for me, I don't want to ruin things further watching an un-neccesary followup. Still avoiding utawerumono's second season for same reasons.
AidanAK47
After all there are things which need sequels and things which don't. And Code Geass never needed a sequel after R2's ending. Giving something a sequel can just ruin the conculsion of the orignal series. Case in point. Eureka Seven Ao. Remember that? Cause you shouldn't. Because it was terrible.
AidanAK47
Honestly I would have preferred Spice and Wolf Season 3.
AidanAK47
So...is anyone gonna mention that Code Geass is getting a sequel?
....Because Code Geass is getting a sequel.
AidanAK47
@Anon, I am watching it as well. But I am a bit behind because I am watching the funimation broadcast dub. It's a very good guilty pleasure. I don't find it quite as funny anymore but it's still pure dumb fun.
SuperMario
@Anon487524: I'm still following it and it still remains a fun show to watch. I love the way they do the fan-servicey completely straight.
Topgavin
@anon I'll admit to watching it. While it is very simple and follows the sport anime formula religiously, it's still a blast to watch every week. This is also helped because you have no expectations for it before watching other than "oh god what's gonna happen this week".
Anonymous487524
Granted, nothing special, just one of those anime whose only worth is being fun to watch without being deep, but Keijo really is fun to watch, easily the best guilty pleasure anime in a long while to me.
Anonymous487524
I started watching it expecting an crappy fanservice anime with nothing of worth, but it ended up being actually pretty fun and awesome to watch.
Anonymous487524
Anyone here seeing Keijo?
SuperMario
What's up with 3-gatsu no Lion? Delayed for a week huh?
Kaiser Eoghan
Checked out Hedeki anno's godzilla re-boot earlier out of curiousity, its a bit plodding/dull at times but sometimes its high camp value played straight is kind of funny, having godzilla evolve during the film was a cool touch and I enjoyed every scene with him and making a Godzilla film today is still very relevant. Not a patch on the old ones though.
Anonymous482380
I think that movie was just so terrible that people made it into a meme. Stuff like "The Entire Bee Movie Except Evey Time They Say 'Bee' The Movie Speeds Up"
Kaiser Eoghan
I'm sorry lmao I had to, it seemed so appropriate a moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1GadTfGFvU
AidanAK47
Fun Fact: The whole Bees shouldn't be able to fly thing is a myth.
Badesh
I think that was just a dry realization...
AidanAK47
@Topgavin, It's a meme to post the entire script of the bee movie in random places?
....I don't get the joke.
Topgavin
For anyone wondering, I think anon just copy/pasted the entire script for the Bee movie. Memes are goin strong
Anonymous479946
According to all known laws
of aviation,


there is no way a bee
should be able to fly.


Its wings are too small to get
its fat little body off the ground.


The bee, of course, flies anyway


because bees don't care
what humans think is impossible.


Yellow, black. Yellow, black.
Yellow, black. Yellow, black.


Ooh, black and yellow!
Let's shake it up a little.


Barry! Breakfast i
Kaiser Eoghan
Actually I think it was up to about episode ten or so I saw.
Kaiser Eoghan
From what I can recall I watched legend of the galactic heroes somewhere past the part with the Caligula guy.
AidanAK47
That is one thing I wonder about the remake. How are they going to make the space battles interesting? Cause for me theres only so many times you can watch tin boxes shoot lasers and explode.
AidanAK47
I didn't like LOGH until the third episode. That's when it started to catch my attention. It also helps that I have a interest in history as the plot of LOGH practically reads like genuine history.
AidanAK47
In my case the overhype didn't kill it for me as I generally try to avoid that. When I walked into LOGH I was under the impression that it would ahve merit but not be for me. After all I heard it was mostly politics and the politics of Gundam bore me to tears. Funny enough the opposite happened. The space battles bored me but the politics got me really interested.
AidanAK47
@Leahcimali, The problem is that the people who say that something is the best thing they ever seen don't actually mean it. Often it's just hyperbole. When talking we other people fans tend to blow certain things out of proportion unintentionally. Overrated is likely the wrong word but you get what I mean.
leahcimali
@AidankAK47 oh and are you going to write a review about it or because psngel already wrote a review of it you are not gonna write it ?
leahcimali
the problem is trying to rank art . Even comparing a comedy show and a story focus show is clearly impossible. @AidanAK47 do you think the overhype of some hardcore logh fan killed you enjoyment of the show ? Because sometimes when you expect nothing of something you can enjoy it more than when waiting for something incredible.
leahcimali
i hear the same thing from fan of lord of the ring, star wars and game of thrones, star trek ... etc. The hardcore fan of those says that they are the greatest things in history ... but saying there are overated is discrediting the quality of those. Nothing is perfect and again maintening equal quality in a longuer running show is impossible. But having a longer story create a more rich background
LookingForKeys
@Mario Kimi no Na ha is pretty damn good. Watched it while in Japan a couple weeks back. The story has well done surprises, and on the graphics side you can *really* see Production IG worked on it.
leahcimali
I don't think saying logh is overated is a good way to say it. All media with great aclaimed critics or even highly popular show suffer from the fan reaction. If fan claim that it is the best things that they have ever saw and you don't agree, it feels overated. But this is only pure subjectivity. Saying he is greastest thing in history is a way for fan to exprim there love
AidanAK47
However it has been placed on a unreasonable pedestal that nothing could live up to. Eva is sort of in the same boat. So yes it is overrated but that does not mean it isn't great.
AidanAK47
@Leahcimali, if anything is claimed to be the greatest thing in the history of mankind it is overrated. The basic idea that there is a single anime out there which is fundamental and universally better than all other anime regardless of genre or intent is inherently a flawed concept. I do certainly see why LOGH is so highly acclaimed and I believe it is well worth watching.
AidanAK47
@Anon, I didn't look into the details of the new LOGH remake. I was planning on doing that when I am doing an anime season preview for it whenever it's going to air next year. For a long anime it does rate highly but even then I am not certain it really needed all 110 of those episodes.
leahcimali
about your comment are you thinking the LOGH anime is overated ? i ask Because you said that there is plenty of anime you consided better .
Anonymous476875
about the remake won't it be a straight adaptation from the manga remake by the artist that made shiki ?
Anonymous476875
AidanAK47 personally i really loved legend of the galactic heroes and it is one of the anime that make one of the biggest impact on me. I found it the best "long" anime that i ever seen (more than 24 ep). But comparing it to anime with shorter format is a bit hard. you can make something that have perfect pacing in 1h30 but it is impossible with a 110 ep anime.
AidanAK47
Either way I am pretty certain that all other isn't crap to me now seeing as I have seen the so called pinnacle. In fact There are plenty of anime I consider better that LOGH.
AidanAK47
There are aspects of its story which wouldn't really work by today's standards.
AidanAK47
And I did it. I watched legend of the galactic heroes. I have slain the white whale of anime. It certainly was interesting to say the least but I think the remake coming is going to have trouble. I am in between giving it a 8 or a 9 but it's clear that LOGH is very much a product of its time.
Kaiser Eoghan
I didn't really care for this weeks flipflappers, the fanservice and also it was even more trigger than I could take.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Gavin@Mario: I'll get round to your name someday but I think this might be my last chance with shinkai.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: That disgaea review made me nostalgic because I remember my friends and I playing it back when it first came out. We found it difficult but were amused by it/liked the characters.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Are the manga posts exclusively for series with only a few chapters translated or series that came out in the past year or so? I've been reading gunka no balthazar and enjoying it enough and think it should get recommendation out there.
Topgavin
Just booked tickets to go see it on Sunday with my little sister. Was surprisingly reluctant but I know she'll like it, I've already seen it but pumped either way.
SuperMario
Your name movie has been showed theatrically here in Aus, I'm planning to rewatch it soon in theatre and then do a review on it. Is that alright with other admins?
SuperMario
so I guess the top 6 will advance to the final are: Otabek Altin (Kazakhstan), Giacometti (Switzerland), Yuri, Yurio, JJ and Phichit? Will be very cool final event haha
SuperMario
At the very least Yuri on Ice shows me how entertaining ice skating can be
SuperMario
@K-Off: have a good trip ahead K-Off. Well, it's still better than Japan (earthquake) I guess
K-Off
Well, heading to Korea tomorrow. What a time to go. In the middle of Korea's biggest financial scandal since the 80s.
Lenlo
Is it just me, or does the Yuri on Ice opening get more colorful and detailed every week?
SuperMario
Badesh, if you like to check out their other songs, give "Tunnels of Love" and "Romeo & Juliet" a listen. Though I just discovered Telegraph Road quite recently, those 2 songs are qmong my all time favorite
SuperMario
I prefer their ealier version when the band was still together (aLCHEMY 1983), but that Rome 2005 was magnificent too. Seriously with this band diifferent live versions feel like another experience... And that song is criminally under-heard in radio too, because of its running time. A crying shame
Badesh
uhh, found it in better quality. now, THAT is a fitting present for my dad :)
Badesh
well that commentator, that sounds like he's in a soccer match, will get on my nerves though...
Badesh
if you're talking about the rome 2005 version... hell, that's some sweet music. i'll inhale that for the rest of the evening, thanks for that
SuperMario
Anyone here listen to Dire Straits? I just in the mood for their music lately. Checked out the band playing Telegraph Road live the other day on youtube and I was completely stunned.
SuperMario
@Lenlo: I considered Flip Flappers 3,5,6 to be its best so far so continue on to see if Flip Flappers is your cup of tea or not
SuperMario
For me I have a lot of stuffs to catch up on this time a year, both in terms of anime and in my RL. Time goes fast as hell
Lenlo
Started watching Flip Flappers. Thought I had it figured out, then we got Mad Max going on. I may start liking it more, cause the first 2 eps didnt do much
Lenlo
Its also nearing Thanksgiving in the states and end of semester for University, so those sorts will be busier than usual.
AidanAK47
You are far too young to be reminiscing. You can build a place for a community but you can't force one to come. I for one would think it would be easier to form one if people stopped using the Anon tag. You can change your name with the customize button you know.
Anonymous469664
I remember a time when people other than site admins were regular posters. Those were the days...
AidanAK47
But I suppose watching Westworld isn't exactly a waste of time.
AidanAK47
Downside is that I really don't have a lot of time these days. It's rather annoying. The day goes by and it doesn't really feel like you did anything.
AidanAK47
On the upside, I am nearly finished Legend of the galactic heroes. So when the Remake airs next year I will have a lot to say about it.
AidanAK47
Personally I have been rather busy lately and wanted to finish off a few things. Hence why my posts have been getting later.
AidanAK47
Anyway when there's nothing on the chat box to talk about then of course it dries up.
AidanAK47
You have unfortunate timing.
Anonymous469664
All the chat regulars have left house as well.
Anonymous469664
Four days since a single post.
K-Off
Damn, I don't know if it's the layout/algorithm/mods, but so many subreddits that I used to frequent have gotten watered down as hell. Between the influx of shills and changes to the upvote/downvote system (which doesn't properly convey controversial comments anymore, like 45 upvotes to 47 downvotes. Now it shows only a -2) it's hard to find reasonable debates or find important info
SuperMario
@K-off: and for that book the last time I checked it was $110 for you guys who live US plus free shipping. For us it's $150 not incluing the postage and few weeks delivery.
K-Off
Damn, I didn't realize that it could be that bad elsewhere. The worst experience I had was when I ordered a laser pointer from Switzerland over a forum, and the cunt didn't respond for nearly 4 weeks until I threatened to refund my $250 on PayPal.
AidanAK47
@Mario, Europe. That's the difference.
SuperMario
@Aidan: yeah I got a dispatch notice saying it's shipping now. I ordered it back in September as well so I don't know why the difference between us.
Kaiser Eoghan
I remember the days where I used to be relying on waiting for anime dvds to come out locally , looking back they were really overpriced, 35 euro for 4 or 5 episodes.
Kaiser Eoghan
My opinion on FMA alchemist ended up being all over the place because I must have watched 3 episodes every few months of it, then I stopped watching it for a year, got back into it for a few months, abandoned it for months then marathoned 20 episodes in one night to get it finished.
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