Posted by psgels on 16 June 2012 with categories: Fate/Zero

After nearly finishing this series, one thing that surprised me is that Kotomine Kirei didn’t really turn into such a psychotic villain. In fact for me he’s one of the most interesting characters in this second season in the way he’s searching for something to fill his doubts with. I’d much rather label Kiritsugu as the psychopath, especially after what happened in this episode.

But that definitely was a great cliff-hanger at the end of this episode. Although that does leave me to wonder: Tohsaka Tokiomi wanted a wish that would require to rewrite the laws of reality right? If such a wish is possible, then why can’t Kiritsugu’s wish of wanting to save everyone come true? To take the boats example: why not use magic to fix both holes? I get what this episode was going for in that Kiritsugu’s wish was way too naive, but if you’ve already gone over nine thousand multiple times, then this seems a pretty strange place to stop. Also, why did the grail appear, even though there were still some people fighting over it?

In any case, the action scenes were all great here, although the fight between Saber and Berserker felt a bit underwhelming, considering most of happened off-screen, and we still don’t really know why he became Berserker. Kiritsugu vs Kotomine was very well directed though, and I liked a lot how professional both were.
Rating: *+ (Great)

32 Responses

  1. Anca says:

    I assume it can’t come true because of that thing someone said earlier that someone else said was a spoiler (although I’m not sure how): that the grail is tainted because of that dude in that village who was tortured to death, so it always interprets wishes in the worst way possible..

    That said, it was explained better and I haven’t read the VN myself.

  2. tsao says:

    Yea if I remember correctly because I read this novel way way back a long time ago so my memory is a bit hazy, the grail was tainted by angra mainyu and it basically became corrupt in a way where its wishes were basically all hell. And Mainyu basically hated the world and represented all the evils in it so basically the “holy grail” during the fourth war was basically not meant to really grant the wishes, but create suffering. So basically I think that if Tohsaka or anyone else had gotten the grail the same thing would have happened to them since the grail in the first place at the beginning of the story was no longer its “omnipotent wishing device”. I can’t really call Kiritsugu a psychopath since he knows that if he chose his wife and daughter, he would basically kill everyone else in the world and there’s no way he could agree to that considering the manner of thinking he’s always had. He’s sadly the tragic hero in this story and you can’t help but feel bad for everything that has happened to him considering he really wanted to save the world.

  3. IronZeta says:

    There was a dude that was sacrificed because his village believed he was the personification of all the world’s evil Angra Mainyu, and he was summoned as Servant Avenger in the third war. He was killed and his soul was added to the Grail like all Servants, but because he was the personification of the wish for all the world’s evil to be personified in one person, the Grail interpreted his soul as a wish and granted it, so now Angra Mainyu (All the World’s Evil) is in the Grail and is twisting it to interpret all wishes in the worst way possible.

  4. anonymous says:

    Repost from 4chan

    the boat explaination works best
    in his wish he’ll kill half the world to save half the world
    kill half of them to save half
    kill half of them to save half
    in the end it’ll be just him alive and the world will know peace

    He had always been willing to sacrifice the minority for the majority because he believed the end justifies the means. But the Grail/Angry Manjew demonstrated that there would be no “end.”

  5. Cholisose says:

    While I was absolutely blown away by this episode (HOLY CRAP that Kiritsugu vs Kirei fight… and DAT CLIFFHANGER), I will agree that there were a few things that have left me rather confused.
    I’m hoping there will somehow be a little more revealed for Lancelot? I mean, I think that in the real legend there was that falling away between Arthur and Lancelot (the whole affair with Guinevere ordeal), but Saber being a woman in this story makes me wonder if things played out the same way. I’m not even sure if Lancelot is supposed to be insane, since Kariya had summoned Berserker with an insanity add-on for his magic spell in episode one (IIRC).
    I’m also a bit confused about the Holy Grail in general. The series had made it sound like a master would receive the grail once all his opponents’ servants were killed. And was it always planned from the start that Irisviel would turn into the Grail? If so, doesn’t that kind of mean Kiritsugu would win no matter what, as long as he had kept her with him? Though now Grail-Irisviel seems to just be trolling him with philosophical questions, rather than actually letting him make a wish (though again, there’s still Archer left to kill [and presumably Saber too, if Kirei’s words about all the servants needing to be sacrificed is to be believed]). I guess I’ll have to hope next episode will answer all these questions, because I’m not getting how this system works.
    Regarding Kirei, I have to say I do feel a little bad for him dying without finding any of those answers he was looking for. I mean, he was a terrible guy, but Kiritsugu’s no saint either. It’s a bit complicated, Fate/Zero’s sliding scale of morality. x_x

    • Moriae says:

      Lancelot had a detailed chapter flashback and a lot more revealed in the novels. They cut the scenes for this episode to focus on Kirei vs Kiritsugu. Let’s pray for them to include them in the bluray as they usually do.

      >if Kirei’s words about all the servants needing to be sacrificed is to be believed

      That is only for a wish to open a path to the Root (what Tokiomi wanted). Other wishes need less sacrifices. That’s why Gilgamesh agreed to give the grail to Kirei.

  6. Dr. Pest says:

    Problem with this series is that it is too special to make it really fit the 20 minute episode scheme. So many things you will only see when the blue rays got released. They added around 40 minutes of new footage to the last season which really improved especially the king’s drinking episode (with Saber, Rider and Gilgamesh) and the part where Gil was analyzing Kotomine which felt in which his guessings about Kotomine’s interest in Kariya felt awkward in the TV version.

    The whole Berserker thing will be explained as well in the upcoming BDs. So if you have enough time and liked the series you should give it a watch when the BD versions will be out in September.

  7. Sacchi says:

    When Irisviel von Einzbern gradually merges with the Holy Grail, Avenger possesses her and controls her.

    During in the final battle between Emiya Kiritsugu and Kotomine Kirei, the Grail gushes out black mud which engulfed both of them. Though both of them entered in a dream like state, the Grail recognize Kiritsugu as the victor. Avenger uses Irisviel to confront Kiritsugu in his mind and asks his wish, however it comes with a heavy price. In his mind, he was forced to confront the fact that his methods will eventually lead to him becoming the ultimate enemy of humanity, equal to Angra Mainyu itself – and, ‘Irisviel’ proclaimed, this path is correct.

    Kiritsugu, now realizing that the Grail is corrupted, he shoots down all his love ones including the illusions of his wife and daughter. As he rejected ‘Irisviel’, Avenger placed a curse on him – to never be free of regret until his painful death.

    Kirei, having went through the same experience, asked Kiritsugu why he rejected the Grail; Kiritsugu’s answer was that it sacrifices too many things for what it gives. Kirei says that he wanted it even so and Kiritsugu, admitting that he didn’t understand Kirei, shot him in the heart.

    From a wikia. Honestly, this episode was great, but all this stuff was left in the dark. The only thing in favor of Fate Zero is Rider asking if the Grail is what Weaver truly believes it is. That’s the only foreshadowing that I can remember.

  8. Spider says:

    Awesome episode. It needed more Berserker/Grail explanations, but it can come with next episode or BDs.
    And… Only great+ for this episode? C’mon. Some episodes of Moretsu Pirates, Kanojo X and others are so much worse and you gave a better rating.

  9. AidanAK47 says:

    Now it’s time to play the “Lets fill in the holes for people who didn’t read the novel” game. Time and time again I heard people saying that the grail business would be explained at the end of the show but from what I remember from the novel it was never quite explained in fate/zero. I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t sure. Anyway…

    In the third holy grail war the Einzbern family cheated and tried to summon the Persian god of darkness, Angra Mainyu in the “Avenger” class thinking he would be amazingly powerful. However turns out that Angra Mainyu was just some man who was living in a town that wanted to be a pure good utopia. However they realised that evil was necessary. So they took some random guy and labelled him all the evils in the world. So whenever something bad happened then it was all his fault. Bad harvest? His fault. Son got sick? His fault. As a result he was a crappy servant and died fairly quickly. His soul entered the grail and the grail misinterpreted as a wish “Form someone to embody all the evils of the world” and it begin creating this individual who tainted the grail into a hell spawning device. This thing is currently inside the grail and wishes to be born into the world.

    As for Kiritsugu’s wish of saving everyone the Grail/Angra Mainyu made it clear. Kiritsugu’s wish is to save the world but he doesn’t know how this could be accomplished. The grail can’t grant a wish if Kiritsugu himself doesn’t even know how. So it saves people in the only way Kiritsugu knows how, picking the majority over the minority. Plus as said before, it will now only grant wishes in the worst way possible.

    Five servants is enough to grant a wish. But if you wish to reach the origin of magic then you need all seven. Of course most participants don’t know this.

    And there was a lot cut out from this episode. Berserker’s battle and back-story were just gone. That’s for the blu-rays I guess. Of course if you don’t want to re-watch the blu-rays then just look of Lancelot on Wikipedia. It’s pretty easy to see why he would be pissed at Arthur.

  10. Souther says:

    I don’t really think it’s necessary to read all the previous replies, full of information that isn’t even in the Fate/Zero novel, when it is pretty clear that the Grail isn’t exactly an instrument for good, just going by what is in the content of the anime itself.

    The rest are just background details for the curious, but I don’t see the point of reading too much about that right now.

  11. Saigo says:

    Angra Mainyu tainted the grail in the third war. The grail usually summon “good” heroes, but some day it summoned a anti hero of the class AVENGER, the servant was weak and was killed, but the grail gets corrupted forever.

    The problem of Type Moon series, is that not all info is in the main series.

    The grail was a “good and pure” artifact-. Now is possesed by Angra Mainyu/ Avenger.

    And it can summon bad heroic spirits like Gille de Rais (caster).

    The actual grial is a being of pure evil-

  12. wicked says:

    You might have misread the Kiritsugu moment. Irisviel was dead the moment she merged with the grail, what’s left was only an image controlled by the corrupted grail.(the black ooze and the evil smiling Irisveil from previous episode). What Kiristugu realized is that the if he had wished for what he originally meant to wish for, the world would very literally die, and his true wish is revealed that the only people that really mattered to him were Iris and Ilya, but it would truly be psychopathic of him to have gone through with his wish knowing the everyone else would die and the grail will only grant his wish through destruction. His killing of his family illusion were gestures symbolic of him rejecting the grail.

    Kirei while may not act psychotic, is truly psychopathic, he doesnt fight for something, rather he does so because his lack of something. Fate/Zero is basically the beginning of his madness, but the sickness was there the entire time, maybe the ending will be more clear of why I said that

    Tohsaka had the only true pure wish, in that his was not truly a wish for an end but rather the act of truly completing the grail itself and connect to the origin. He had no wish for the Grail to achieve, rather all that energy would be used to open the gateway to the Origin, so think of it as an alternate function of the cup rather than wish granting aspect of it.

  13. yokushi says:

    Angra Mainyu and the grail tainting is never explained here.

    That’s the problem with Fate/Zero being a prequel, some things are explained in Fate/stay night novel.

  14. Juno says:

    To add on to what others are saying, more from Fate/Stay Night that was never explained in Fate/Zero about the grail:

    Aside from this 8th Avenger class, another secret had been held from the participants: that the grail was a search for the great sorcery, the origin, and that in actuality, all Masters and Servants were tools to summon it. Masters killing other masters was a rule added on to allow them to be disposed of easier, and leaving the grail to the last master was fine, since the true purpose of the grail didn’t end at the granting of the wish, and more miracles could happen. The grail was made as it was to allow both with the new sorcery… but after the Avenger/Angra Mainyu incident, the grail had already granted a wish, and it was simply using its own power to reawaken and get born in the world as the true evil.

    And while Kirei was definitely characterized very well, I realized from Fate/Stay Night that he wishes the thing to be born into the world because he, himself, feels only pleasure and happiness at pain, as someone who knows only sin and evil might be. His only regret was not killing his fiancee/wife by his own hands, and because he is open to this evil, and yet still believes in his principles of blessings, he feels his only role is blessing anything that wishes to be born into the world, good or evil, like himself. As an answer to justify his own existence in the world, despite being a sinful person. Like the grail. It has every right to exist if God, or whatever the will of the world is, allows it to exist. It is not good or evil. It can only be judged upon having been born, even if it is inevitably born to bore evil. Thus, allow it to be born. Everything after that is up to the judgement of others alive and whether or not it can survive.

    • wicked says:

      It is most certainly an self affirmation the Kirei wanted to see the grail complete in Staynight, though if I remember correctly, you would only know this in the Heaven Feel route. It’s not that he does not know good and evil as he’s raised a member of the church with strict teaching of right and wrong, it’s that his very existence is at odds with the teachings since he can only take pleasure in what is evil. He questions how an evil like him can even be allow to come to pass in the first place, so he wants to see true evil take form

      • Juno says:

        You said it better than I did. Thank you. =)
        Heaven’s Feel is stuck in my mind. I wasn’t expecting it to clear up all the plot holes from the first two routes. I’m so glad I kept reading, even though it took forever to get to that point…
        And I’m glad I finished it before reaching this episode. I would have been confused as all heck. Especially about Kirei’s “death.”

  15. James says:

    Concerning the queries about Lancelot’s grudge against Saber, in the light novel, it was depicted that Saber did not give Lancelot the “honourable” defeat he deserved, and for that he despised Saber so much so that the grudge he had towards Saber was enough to have him getting summoned as a Berserker class. For his ability to turn everything he touches into his own noble phantasm, this is due to his previous life achievement where he used a twig to defeat an enemy. Next, for his cloaking ability, it was said that he disguised himself as the black knight to compete in a chivalry competition and hence, his ability to conceal his identity. That’s as much info as possible regarding Lancelot/Berserker’s ability.

    But this episode was superb! I mean, Kiritsugu vs Kirei was one thing, but the whole psychological part was awesome in a twisted way. It was either to save the people he loved and sacrifice the rest or to sacrifice his wish and lose his loved ones. Man, that was good brain food.

    Last noteworthy thing: Gilgamesh is the most arrogant, conceited and narcissistic anime character yet! God, I like how he goes “I am the one king in this world. Whatever I dictate is justice and the law itself.”

  16. Loz says:

    Awesome show as usual. Not that ive read the VN, but I like how they portray some of the messages in this show. I think in terms of Kiritsugu’s wish, for peace to be obtained somethings got to give, so it would appear the only way you can gain true peace is if nothing is left. (So to gain peace you have to become a villain who destroys everything? Quite the paradox)

    I also really like the theme of Sacrifice.

    If you stop thinking bout the holy grail for a second and just think of the notion that you cant gain everything from nothing. So the grail is always going to be flawed. For example Fullmetal alchemist had the same theme with its equivalent exchange.

    You have to sacrifice something of equal/more value if you want to gain something of equal measure. In this case Kiritsugu obviously values his wife and child more than anything else in the world, but killing all the billions of people in the world isnt worth gaining his 2 family memders.

    I suppose now that I think about it you can make paradoxes out all the characters wishes/actions in this show. Well I cant think of one for Tokiomi Toshaka at the moment, but I sure someone more psychologically minded then myself could find a paradox for him in there.

  17. Hououin Kyouma says:

    Thanks so much for the info guys!! Now most questions about Lancelot and the background/nature of the grail are gone. Still…I find a bit awkward its relationship with Irisviel, indeed; Wasn’t Kiritsugu at advantage by having her with him and knowing the other masters ignore of many of this, before truly winning??

    And hell yeah!! What an awesome ep!! Best 20 mins used for that breath-taking fight depiction, mind-blowing FMA-like plot twist and that cliffhanger… OMG…I rank it waaay better than Kanojo X and Sakamichi no Apollon when respectively preparing for their great ends.

    And again…Archer’s personality managed to fascinate me one last time! That IS having self-esteem…

    • Juno says:

      Whether or not he knew that the Holy Grail would fill, no matter what, he was at an advantage. That was, until Irisviel was kidnapped before truly reaching the point where she would become the Holy Grail.

      Though I don’t think the ending was FMA-like. Kiritsugu wasn’t being given any equivalent exchange for his wish in the end. His wish was just being thoroughly destroyed by his own method of salvation he wished to overcome. The Grail probably COULD have saved humanity if the whole thing with the Avenger class never came to root in the Holy Grail because of the Third Sorcery or whatever it was beyond the gate that made it all-powerful.

  18. some loser says:

    Happy Father’s Day Illya!

  19. Blah says:



    • AidanAK47 says:

      People who haven’t read the visual novel already have almost everything spoilt if they watched Fate/zero up to this point.
      Besides the only ones watching this are those who have read the visual novel or those that never intend to read it.

      • Kuroichi says:

        Mostly true, but you forget of those who had not heard of Fate before this and planned to read the VN once Zero is over…

        • wicked says:

          You know, I dont think the stuff that’s spoiled here really spoils anything for Staynight.

          You found out through Kiritsugu that the Grail’s ability to grant miracles is, more or less, a lie. The Grail is evil, that’s what’s been established here. Whether or not you knew it was Avenger that tainted the grail in the previous war, it matters not. If you were to play the VN after Fate /Zero you would have known the Grail is evil, it really doesnt spoil much of anything, because and people may disagree with me here, but granting wishes through grail is really not that big of a deal in Staynight, certain not to Shirou.

          and Kirei’s character. Yeah, that guy is not exactly chatty about himself through most of Staynight. In fact, if you only played the fate route, you’d be just as confused about his actions. While He’s an important part of Heaven’s feel, and you’ll know more about him, it wont impact the story itself one way or another to know that he has existential problems. Heaven’s Feel is a situation entirely on its own, he doesnt exactly have control in it

  20. Leica says:

    Wasn’t Tokiomi’s idea to sacrifice every single servant and get to Akasha that way?

  21. Jack says:

    One of the best anime episodes I’ve seen in quite some time… Kiritsugu vs. Kirei was simply perfect, but I also liked how anticlimatic the end of Kariya/Berserker was: truly, this pair’s story was only sound and fury, signifying nothing.

    I also like how, deep down, the “King of Kings” is nothing but a thug… I mean, the way he’s acting with Saber, he’s basically a rapist.

  22. Stars says:

    Most incredible episode of FZ so far, this show is insanely epic.

  23. mnk says:

    i thought lancelot’s rage is a result of arturia’s clouded ideology of rulership; described by iskander

    • wicked says:

      It’s more detail reveal in the novel that Lancelot was warp by guilt and the circumstances that led to his downfall, which was a situation where all sides are righteous in their action, yet it only led to tragedy to all sides. Arturia cannot blame him from loving Guinevere because she herself cannot give Guinevere the same, Lancelot cannot blame Arturia for sacrificing Guinevere’s role and heart as a women, because she not only did the same, she did so for the country. He should hate her for ruining Guinevere’s life and forcing him to oppose his king, but he cannot because he know she only does so because the situation force her to, and in her heart she held not grudge, only sympathy and regret toward them. So he has all these rage for the injustice of it all, but no one to direct it to because of reason and his own ideals. He prayed to no longer be a righteous knight, if he was not selfless and understanding, he can direct this rage toward her, and she can do the same to him and truly punishes him. Only then he can find solace in that He was the one that was wrong in all of it, and finally forgives himself.

      Although, he did not get that satisfaction either

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So RWBY's back. I actually miss the whole RWBY team. Still prefer Ruby's old custom more. Nora looks cool.
With the fourth episode, Vivid Strike seems to have crossed an invisible line that makes it more like the original Nanoha shows rather than Vivid. The kind of brutal beatdown delivered by the co-protagonist and the build up to it is something quite alien to a normal SoL/Sports anime show.
Ep. 4 of Tiger Mask was a lot better than the last 3, quite a hyped fight that was a full 6mins long. Will continue watching in hope of an awesomely long final fight.
Kaiser Eoghan
Kaiser Eoghan
Going back to the fanservice topic, its very easy to complain about it in anything but then something actually comes along that actually does it for you. I mean I always say that I don't watch a show/movie for its fanservice elements and stick with pictures on image boards, but then I ended up seeing a film where I actually got something out of the fanservice while watching the film its.
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The oujia prequel was competent genre fare, the director cared about the characters and every now and the built up a decent mood. Although jump Scares are there . And I always appreciate a horror film having a mean spirited ending. One of the rare cases where the young actors do well in a horror film. The pace is a bit uneven, rushed and a bit laggy .
Kaiser Eoghan
In the sense of how messed up/especially bleak those two episodes were.
Kaiser Eoghan
There was the sense too with both those episodes of "Jesus...I wasn't ready for that...."
Kaiser Eoghan
Though the first episode of the first season and the third episode of season 3 are very hard to beat. Adding to what I thought of s3 ep3 I felt that one hit me on the same level as s1 ep1 did so.
Though in previous seasons I generally only really liked 2 out of the 3.
@Kaiser, though the previous seasons where only 3 episodes long and you enjoyed 3 out of 6 in this season. So yo essentially get the same amount of enjoyment as previous seasons.
Kaiser Eoghan
Based on my comments, it looks like I had a mixed reaction to the third season. Three out of six, but the great was was great and forgives it but I still feel that there was more of a consistentancy in quality in the other seasons. I enjoyed every story in seasons 1 and 2.
Kaiser Eoghan
The final episode felt like a movie all on its own, I'd have gladly watched another thirty minutes of it, ending was a nice punch in the gut.
Just finished black mirror season 3. I hear people basically complaining that it's not as strong as the previous two season but I disagree. I really enjoyed this and this is a show that deserves much more episodes. Personal favorite is between shut up and dance and hated in the nation. Worst I thought was San Junipero. Overall thought each episode was interesting.
Kaiser Eoghan
On the upside I loved black mirrors fifth episode, I'm a sucker for war/action-dramas and I particularly liked the tech in this one.
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Yeah this is impossible for me to sit through, the romance part is also rather dull.
Kaiser Eoghan
Eh, this fourth episode is plodding and trite, feels like a bad, poorly dated 90s film.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Third episode also instilled a great sense of paranoia.
@Kaiser: thanks for that mate. I have too much to say for Flipflappers but to put them all in coherent flow is goddamn hard. And like I said I still fell I left many details out: that gung-ho potato or Yayaka and the twins
@Friend: jugding from the last convention I went to, people loved Re:Zero customs (Emilia and Rem, Ram were highlights. Or you could try RWBY characters (I for once love to see someone cosplay Pirrha Nikos or Velvet Scarlatina)
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Didn't care much for new black mirrors second episode, then again I'm not really the target for that story. The third episode while a bit heavyhanded and predictable was suspenseful, nasty/mean and I liked that about it, did in 50 minutes what some thrillers fail to achieve in two hours.
Holo is a good one :0
Materials aren't a problem at all for the most part, except for anything too crazy like working in brass. I'd prefer it to be characters I'm familiar with.
Does it matter to you that they're from shows that you like, or are you just in it for the challenge?
@Friend Aidan has some good ones there. I'd also give the cast of Akame ga Kiru a shot, I don't like the series but it has a lot of neat character designs.
I was thinking simple as I didn't know what kind of materials you got on hand. I was also thinking of Holo from spice and wolf or Kino from Kinos journey either.
Mm, Tatsumaki might be not challenging enough to design for. Doesn't Shiki simply wear either a coat or Japanese kimono? I do work in set design and not in character prop design, but I'd love to try something that would let me reasonably challenge myself.
@Friend, Spit balling here but Tatsumaki from One Punch Man? I know the costume for that one would be simple enough. Or maybe Shiki from Kara No Kyoukai?
*I don't want to do anything too complex for my first try, but I also don't want to do anything boring. Boring would be a character like Rukia or Celty. Any ideas?
I remember talking about this with Emma/Kaiser before, but has anyone here gone cosplaying at an expo before? I thought it would be neat to try designing my own costume and try something else beside drawing on a computer.
@Kaiser, I am up to episode 4. 3 has been the best one so far.Though in all these episodes I pretty much figured out the twist from the get go. Still this shows always tends to get you thinking.
Kaiser Eoghan
I think the roles/identity thing with flipflappers, at least with the protaganist does fit in well with adolescence.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: I've only seen the first episode so far. I felt the acting was intentional and reflected the satire Brooker was going for on the shallow nature of society. Bleak as ever but gloriously grotesque.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario:Good in depth reviewing there Mario of flipflappers episode three.
Good god this first episode of black mirror is hard to watch. I know exactly how it's going to turn out but it's just so damn painful to watch.
Well, tbh up to where I've seen there's not much explicit yaoi in yuri on ice, only a lot of fujoshi fuel.
@Kaiser. thanks for the torrent. Gonna blaze through this today.
@Topgavin, as someone who watches a metric ton of anime I am rather surprised at that estimate that 90% of it contains Yuri.
My god those gay scenes in Yuri on Ice are hard to watch for me. Wonder if this is how it feels to be a girl watching 90% of normal anime nowadays.
okay, Flip Flappers episodic review was up. This is my lengthiest weekly review so far and I still feel I missed a lot of points. Damn you Flip Flappers
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You have seen the light, not needing to know everything thats happening to enjoy something ^_^
Kaiser Eoghan
I've given some consideration to reviewing that oujia film followup.
Whether you see one or the other is entirely up to your preferences, so it makes no difference to me which is worse. I have gotten very tired of generic character types, but again that's just because of the things I decide to regularly follow.
I will say if it must come down to either unnatural dialogue or unnatural character types, at leas the character type is speaking their own words and not the words of the script writer.
Or was that a black and white fallacy? Maybe it was a little of both.
@Realjustified, K-Off wasn't agreeing with me. That's a Moving the Goal Posts logical Fallacy but well I will answer regardless. Honestly it's preferable to have neither. The big mistake you are making here is that you are putting down a condiction that a show must have one or the other. But both cartoons and anime can have both. I just think it's a lot more prominent in cartoons than anime.
Like, having read hundreds of harem manga over the years, a majority of the ultimate love interest always happens to be the first girl the protagonist meets.
Wait wait wait wait. Aidan and K-Off. I get that dialogue in cartoon can seem like it was written by a script writer, but at the same time, lots of anime have characters whose sole purpose is entirely scripted. The whole spectrum of "deres" and everything. What do you think is worse? Unnatural dialogue, or unnatural character types?
You guys should really go fuck yourself, it's a solution and it's nothing short of great!
You guys should really watch the first 4 episodes of Bungo, it's a prequel and it was nothing short of great!
omg!! I just realized To be Hero was one of the show that I reviewed its 1st episode back in Chinese Animation post. I watched raw then though
forgive me if I'm a bit too overwhelmed by Flip Flappers... For this episode alone I took like 25 screenshots...trying to write a review now...
I have absolutely no idea what is going on in Flip Flappers plot. And yet for some reason I am OK with that.
Anyone out there that's a fan of crude humor should go watch ep.3 of To Be Hero. Certinately stepped it up a notch from the last two humor-wise.
One downside I can think of already is that I'm bound to lose or break one of the detachable controllers. The cost for those pieces is what I'm most interested in.
Nintendo Switch hmm? Honestly it looks too good to be true. I expect some major downsides to this thing.
I like cartoons, don't get me wrong. Certainly good for a change of pace. But there is something about the way they are written that I find rather distracting.
I don't know, maybe if I said it's like the difference from how characters talk in movie vs how characters talk in a sitcom?
@K-Off, I said one liner's or jokes. Not one liner jokes. It's hard to explain. Basically when I hear a conversation in anime even if it is based in stereotypes, it at least feels like a conversation that's being had in the moment. In cartoons however there is a layer of artificiality and it feels like characters know what a person is going to say and has a response prepared.
That's probably why some of my favorite anime in recent years haven't been very heavy on character archetypes, or were either parodies of it.
Comedic dialogue with anime in recent years have leaned too much on the idea of playing off character archetypes. The collected character vs the energetic character, for one. I'd like to see more variety. Some more word play, hyperbolic humor, body humor, etc etc.
@Aidan Not quite sure what you mean by that, because it's certainly not even a majority of cartoons that rely on cheap one liner jokes. I suppose it's entirely up to taste, but I can appreciate the energy in cartoons like Steven Universe or Regular Show when compared to the increasingly repetitive dialogue found in some recent anime.
@Topgavin: I just read that review and his main reason being Shelter is pretentious. oh well! Can't never please anyone.
Thought I'd check out the reviews for Shelter on MAl and the top review is a 1/10. Apparently because it's a cute girl we sympathise with her more, which is bad because reasons. I mean.. what? MAL never ceases to amaze me
@Mario, no. It's more that the dialogue keeps trying to push out one liners or jokes regardless of whose talking.
@Aidan: maybe because they spoke in your native language do you can feel that it's artificial, ya know? I know I have the same problem with Vietnamese drama/ cartoon and maybe Japanese people have that same issues with anime?
By which I mean, the way characters talk in cartoons is very...artificial. Like you can tell that the dialgoue was clearly written beforehand and it never really sounds natural. At least to me.
@Anon, I wouldn't. The writing and structure are too cartoon. What with the episodic nature and dialogue that generally pushes for a comedic tone.
Kaiser Eoghan
Flanagan also directed absentia which I haven't seen yet but I think someone I came across of 4chan linked it to being lovecraftian?
Kaiser Eoghan
Oculus was a film of two halves for me. Hush was a pretty standard home invasion thriller, making the victim deaf was an interesting twist but not as unique as you might think, still suspenseful though.
Kaiser Eoghan
I never saw the first oujia film. Though Mike Flanagan who did the sequel, he's never made a bad movie but he's never really made a great one either.
Kaiser Eoghan
I stick to the firm belief that cartoons and anime, visually should do and be their own thing. I'll prefer a western artstyle for cartoons rather than one pretending to look like anime style.
But this is a good topic and I'm sure everyone has their own opinions so I'm looking to hear some more arguments
@anon352392: no they aren't. For me not because of where their production based, nor their intended audience, but rather their styles, both visually and storytelling-ly, are different
Anime,” they assert, is not a “style” of illustration or animation.
That's where I differ to those guys. For me, anime is a style. In that sense, I consider RWBY, and Canadian-produced short Flutter as an anime. Thunderbolt Fantasy is not and anime-influence shows/movies that are intented for Western audience like AniMatrix or Afro Samurai are anime
@Anon nah they wouldn't be because they aren't made by a japanese producer for the japanese market. Quality isn't the question, production is
NX and Red Dead Redemption 2 trailers tomorrow.
They are good series and i honestly like them alot more than most anime series, would their quality make them anime?
What about cartoons like Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Wander Over Yonder, Star Vs The Forces Of Evil?
In other news a sequel to an absolutely terrible horror movie called Ouija is out and it's...actually pretty good? Wondering if critics were paid off or it is legit good. Well it did have the guy who was behind Oculus and that was a pretty good movie.
Simplify the term down enough and anime is literally anything animated but the whole point of the term is to distinguish it. For to call Spongebob an anime makes me want to projectile vomit. Point is this, you say you watched a cartoon, people think Tom and jerry, Scooby doo etc. You say you watched an anime, people think Cowboy bebop, Attack on titan, etc. Whole point of the term.
For example, I don't consider Avatar or RWBY to be anime for while they use anime style, the writing is fundamentally structured like an American cartoon. Through I would consider Bloodivores an anime even though it was made by a Chinese animation company, making it technically a Chinese cartoon.
As far as what is and isn't anime I honestly think of the term as a means of distinguishing it from cartoon which gives the impression of being for children. It's like Graphic novel is to comic book. Though techically graphic novels are issues of comics bound in book form, the term Graphic novel is often used to distinguish works that go above superhero comics and whatnot.
Basically I think it was due to Porter Robinsons involvement that they didn't consider it anime.
@Aidan: Did the mods give any concrete reasons why they didn't consider it an anime?
@Mario, It wasn't the community that had the problem. It was the mods. The community made it pretty clear that they considered it anime.
So despite the art style is obviously anime, the character speaks in Japanese, and the production was animated by A1 Studios, it's not an anime? Sometimes I feel sad that the anime community keeps limiting themselves with such fixed minds.
I saw it yesterday and yes it was good. For a 5-minute story, they don't make it too overwhelme with details, and still pack an emotional punch. Moreover it elevates the song. Good stuffs.
Shelter was quite good though. It works well and the animation was beautiful. Song is not bad either. It's got a nice emotional punch to it though it's a bit simple a story.
Well anyway I only saw all this because I checked out the video for the first time and wanted to see how others thought of it with a quick scan through reddit. And I get this shitshow instead.
Playing the victim is the one really pisses off the internet. For refusing to admit you f*cked up only encourages people to shove how you f*cked up into your face. That's what really grinds peoples gears.
Yep, seen that too. The mods even put up another tread about the video and tried to guilt trip people by saying they got death threats. Look, internet rules 101. If you said or did something stupid admit to it and just walk away. Do not try to deflect blame or play the victim, that only adds fuel to the fire.
@Aidan oh yeah saw that live lol. Porter himself even commented on twitter about it, gotta love internet drama
So did anyone happen to catch the big old shitstorm of that Shelter music music when a mod of the Anime subreddit decided it wasn't "Anime" enough and removed the discussion post about it? Oh internet drama...what silly nonsense.
Finally caught up with JoJo. Diamond is Unbreakable has turned out to be much better than Stardust Crusaders. Should have waited for the season to finish through as I really loved marathoning it.
I had a feeling that might be the case considering the source materail for luger.
@Mario Oh I watched that, certinately worth it. Packed more story that some 12-episode shows do nowadays and gorgeous animation.
and I will check out "Shelter" music video to see what all the fuss is about
*this weekend to be exact.
Sounds like Luger Code 1951 is an OVA that will air next week, the same air date with "my" Zaregoto OVA.
@Mario: doesn't sound real at all to me lol
@Mario, I might be able to manage. If all else fails I can talk about the past of these historical figures.
While I don't mind watchinng Drifters, I swaer if I had to cover that show, I couldn't come up with anything to say.
Do you guys know what language the fairies speak in Drifters? It does sound like a genuine language
@topgavin: humanity has declined is a great show. It has good writing and dark, witty sense of humor. I could talk about it in length but psgels pretty much covered it all. He was really impressed by that show however.
That should be me covered till the weekend. Why do all my shows air on the weekend...
@Mario nah I've watched the whole thing but I'd heard about it at the start of this year and put it off. The dialogue between her and the fairies was great stuff, probably gonna rewatch it this weekend now that you mention it
Alright, I got three posts written up and will be throwing them out in about two hours or do.
I thought you've finished it. Yeah I love her character a lot, so cynical but witty. My favorite moment was when she read about fairy's plan to invent religions. She was like "so religions are invented?" (beat) "I've learn something new today". Priceless
@Mario Oh nice, it was one that I had heard about but never got round to. To put it in simple anime terms, Watashi is best girl
@topgavin: I just finished the series yo mentioned the other day: humanity is declined. Man, I love it. I know now I have a thing for dark twisted absurdist anime
@Ano340004: the name is Watashi ga Motete Dousunda, or to put it short Motete. I have fun with it but i'm not that enthuastic
@anon the english name is Kiss him, not me. Search through the first impressions if you need the jap name.
then that girl really loves BL (boy love)
what is the name of the anime that the girl is fat and then she got depressed because her favorite boy anime died then she got thin?
Season 7 is awesome so far too. It feels like the tone of the show is finally back to normal and it feels like Adventure Time again.
Whew, I binged all seasons of Adventure Time this weekend. The show hit a low spot in Season 6 but I think it needed to happen...Poor Finn needed the serious character development after what he did to FP.
You guys are too hard on it
Motete is very funny
Kaiser Eoghan
When it comes to gag manga and four-koma, I just eventually reach a stopping point with a comedy series in that format. Even with hidamari sketch.
I think it was typical light novel trash based on what was in the PV. I laughed that despite it being horrible that the crowd still cheered anyway, likely because it had a bath clip in it.
The PV was hilarious. I had no idea what the anime was about.
@Aidan I'm good, I'll stick with Working.
@K-Off, you could switch to something like Gi(a)rlish Number if you like. I for one am really digging the satire of the show. Plus I like that it's basically showing how an utter train-wreck of an anime can be made. That PV in the last episode was truly painful.
Feeling pretty disappointed with Working. I haven't gotten any more cynical with comedies, at least I don't think, and its flaws are so irritating.
@Adam Le, I find that with Comic book dialogue. Which is one of the reasons I have gone off marvel movies. Cartoons have it to a degree as well.
I love the instagram shots in Yuri
Maybe I can have a watch through those live action films and do a compare/contrast to see which version works better. After all movie and tv series are 2 different medium, and live-action vs animation is the topic that we never get tired of
speaking of which, the overlap between anime and live-action adaptation from manga is overwhelming. For this year alone, there were Erased, 3-gatsu no Lion, Fune o Amu, orange, and Chihayafuru (part 1&2). Those were just the ones I know.
@Adam: Don't know which genre you're into but you can try Fune o Amu (The Great Passage)
Adam Le
I can't seem to get into any of these new shows. I don't know, the dialogue always seems off to me and the forced comedy is a big turn off.
Reminds me of a thought I had when I was last at the Getty art museum. People walking past works of art hundreds of years old, but only taking a second-long glance before moving on to the next one. Not their fault really, it's only the professional critics who can understand what they see with depth.
I'm the opposite really, they're getting paid for what they said so they better know their shits
Kaiser Eoghan
I suppose I'm slightly envious of professional critics somewhat.
Sometimes you're just meant to experience the ride you know. I don't watch those explained video anymore because after all it's just one guy's opinions.
Kaiser Eoghan
Kaiser Eoghan
And I mean people who art professionals or students.
Kaiser Eoghan
I guess I'm just unsure of something, how many people watching "arty" stuff are able to pick it up on their own. By looking up an "explained video" or "explained essay" to get it, am I copping out?
Kaiser Eoghan
I feel like I've begun getting on board with the european art stuff but am really only scratching the surface with the Chinese and that stuff.
Kaiser Eoghan
And find myself missing whats going on sometimes.
Kaiser Eoghan
I'll admit I do find it frustrating, that even though I can like art films, emotionally connect at times, appreciate the visual techniques and admire them for being so different without looking up analysis by people far smarter than myself I honestly feel lost sometimes as to the meaning.
@Kaiser: Apichatphong Weerseethakul's films are so otherworldly and spiritual that I wouldn't dare to call them "dreams" anymore. Check out his "Uncle Boonmie", "Syndromes and a Century", "Cemetery of Splendors". he has such singular vision that just watch and experience his films are rewarding enough
@afgm: well, if we really go over-analyze it, bunnies can represent desire for example ^^
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