Posted by psgels on 2 November 2013 with categories: Kill La Kill

The recent discussion on fanservice has gotten me thinking a bit, especially after I found this infographic about Kill la Kill. It’s true that the fanservice in Yozakura Quartet is just bad and distracts from what makes the show good or interesting, and the fanservice in Kill la Kill is much better because it objectifies everyone, and it has a reason behind it, and the argument you often hear is “it’s awesome so who cares?” – but still I see no reason to bring some more nuance in the discussion.

I mean, reason or not: Kill la Kill cashes in on the popular female empowerment trope. A woman kicks ass while dressed in skimpy clothing. Alone, this would be fine, but with how often this is done, it’s hinted that it’s almost a requirement that if you want to kick ass, you need to show some too. The good shows indeed build all sorts of symbolism around it, but does that make it right? Personally, I still prefer watching strong female characters who can just be empowered because of who they are, and don’t follow the cosmetic trends. Does having fanservice alone ruin a character? Nah. It’s just one part of a show. But the problem is that everyone reacts to it in a different way: for some people it weighs more heavily than others. And in my personal experience, the best shows are the ones that don’t care about the shounen or shoujo label, but are just catered to create a good story for everyone.

But I do think that Kill la Kill is among Hiroyuki Imaishi’s best attempts at this kind of nuance. I mean, Gurren Lagann was basically a sausage fest (the most badass woman: Yoko, who both fits the badass female character to a T and pretty much got a short end of the character development stick), and Panty and Stocking WAS a series that was partially based on making fun of female stereotypes. This show finally feels balanced, and it’s really enjoyable because of it. This episode was no exception by the way.

The same goes for the other way around, of course. I mean I’m also tired of the series that objectify men. Hajime no Ippo currently is a good example of taking that a bit far, with all of the current penis jokes and all. But also the series that go out of their way to make their characters bishies hereby alienate most of the male population just because they have nothing to watch it for. The truly good shoujo series have guys who are good looking, but who can appeal to everyone.
Rating: 5.5/8 (Great)

53 Responses

  1. martin says:

    nice study on imaishi making fun of stereotypes. 2 more shows are worth mentioning, re:cutie honey ep 1 and magical shopping arcade abenobashi ep 3 + 12. he directed these single episodes and i got the sense he was making fun of his own subject matter by simply taking it over the top. he took the ecchi genre over the top in cutie honey and in abenobashi it was the lolicon fetishes that are so prevalent in anime/japan.

    maybe i could be wrong and say imaishi is just one really immature and insensitive director. even still he is a director better than most at being immature and insensitive.

    this episode was hella enjoyable but it did have a moment that made me uncomfortable. when that dude kicked matoi in the gut and struck her hard in the head even after she was powerless and on the ground is some really sensitive imagery.

  2. AidanAK47 says:

    I always thought of the skimpy outfits female superheroes wear were a kind of tactic. When you think about it the majority of there opponents will be men. And any man will hesitate to attack a half naked women. That hesitation was a great advantage.
    The fanservice in Kill la kill does feel like it has a point. Plus it funny that there’s not just male fanservice but female fanservice. I mean how many guys have been stripped in this show? That said I think the female empowerment image you link is looking a bit too deeply into it.

  3. TheUltimateReaper says:

    Jesus Christ that link. People seriously go through lengths to justify their own idiotic conceptions on sexuality, not to mention just how much the issue is driven about women. Kill la Kill is fucking awesome, and other than a few metaphors or whatever about clothes, and casting off shame, and nudism and whatever I don’t see any reason to really over analyze like I’ve seen people do.

    “There is no reason to be ashamed.” “There is no reason to feel weak.” “Be comfortable in your own skin.” It might a be bread and butter way of looking at things but this is what I gather as any messages, and I like it, I think it’s great, I think that’s positive, but people still can’t get over their fanservice gripe.

    Some service is bad, some good, and some I don’t think really matters. I like Kill la Kill through and through, I like the Kamui, I like the crazy powers, I like the outfits, and I like the teacher who is always trying to take off his shirt.

    • jonas says:

      Because cartoons are for kids, and people need some justification to keep watching them. The empowerment thing isn´t even subtext.

      • TheUltimateReaper says:

        >Calling anime a cartoon
        >for kids
        >Brojito a lemon and tomato are both fruits but I wouldn’t put a tomato in a fruit cake.
        >Multiple target demographics in the industry, youngins are just more popular

        People are just stupid.

      • AidanAK47 says:

        “Because cartoons are for kids..”

        Couldn’t even finish a sentence without failing miserably. Even taking out the fact that you call a anime a cartoon there’s this complete misconception of cartoons being just for kids. Go ahead and watch the spawn animated series and try telling me that again.

      • jonas says:

        “people […] often play a card that allows them to pretend that their liking such a show does not reflect on their tastes at all.

        […]It’s not as if that we are truly expected to only watch and enjoy the consensus masterpieces. It’s just that we often behave as if we are expected to, and that we impose this on others”.

        • AidanAK47 says:

          Jonas, listen here. That image was not trying to justify a bad anime. It was trying to justify the fanservice in an anime. You are just way off base. There’s plenty more in this that they could attempt to justify with artistic merit but they tried to justify the fanservice because that’s what people are raging about and making them lump Kill la kill in the same pile of generic fanservice anime as queens blade or to love-ru. Which is wrong. The thing is that regardless of whether fanservice has a point or not, it’s still fanservice. But that does not make this a fanservice show because fanservice is not the main point of the show. It’s not out of some silly guilt.

          On that note.
          “90% of anime and manga is crud (Sturgeon’s Revelation); or, 80% of the good stuff one gets out anime and manga comes from 20% of the examples (Pareto’s Principle, ‘The Law of the Vital Few’); take your pick. Either way, many shows people like will fall under the ‘not excellent’ spectrum of quality.”

          That applies to every medium of entertainment. And I do mean every medium. Music, video games, film…90% of it is crap. It’s not something specific to anime and manga.
          And in many cases the person who likes a bad show genuinely believes it to be good. Because the enjoyment of the show tends to faze out the flaws in their eyes. You see that happen with good anime too. Any time someone talks about their favorite anime they tend to speak only of the positives of it and many times fail to say anything negative about it. No matter how good an anime is there’s always flaws, people just prefer not to see that.

          So to sum it up, your comment is still pretty stupid.

          • jonas says:

            Fanservice: Long, full shots of robots in mecha shows, sexual elements, long fight scenes, and violence can all be considered fan service as they are specifically aimed at pleasing the fans of any given show.

            Kill la Kill can´t be compared to Queen´s Blade, Freezing, or the wrestling show, because Kill la Kill is not boring as hell.

            I´m not denying my comment was stupid, but the fact that you can only understand Ghostlightning´s essay on a superficial level tells me we are on the same boat (hint:”I posit however, that guilt is a feeling from moral wrongness”).

          • AidanAK47 says:

            And anything can be considered anime regardless of whether it’s made in japan or not. Lets not get into semantics here. It tends to make things lose meaning.

            Just to make sure I reread it before posting this and I am sure I understood it fine. Basically he’s talking about how in an effort to avoid judgement or attack people who like an anime which is widely regarded by mass opinion as poor or terrible will tend to take a stance of claiming it has merit artistically or by labeling it as their guilty pleasure instead of simply admitting that they like a bad show. Not really rocket science.
            However I counter by saying that in many cases people actually truly believe a show is good and are not attempting to cover up a bad show because they like it. Because to them they don’t see these flaws other people speak of.

        • jonas says:

          Close, ghostlightning is talking about “ressentiment”, that is why he starts with this:

          “Guilt, yes guilt. Nobody wants to feel it. It implies one did something wrong, and is inferior to those who do otherwise.In anime and manga however (not to imply that it doesn’t occur elsewhere), taste is part of a social dominance game that’s played for high stakes: self-esteem in the internet.

          Sure it sounds silly, and it is. But people do operate under the paradigm of taste. They accuse each other of having bad taste, and praise creative works for being ‘tasteful,’ as if the benchmark or touchstone for such can be taken for granted”.

          Now compare with this: “According to Kierkegaard ressentiment occurs in a “reflective, passionless age”, in which the populace stifles creativity and passion in passionate individuals. Kierkegaard argues that individuals who do not conform to the masses are made scapegoats and objects of ridicule by the masses, in order to maintain status quo and to instill into the masses their own sense of superiority”.

          You can read more about it here: Eva Melnikova.pdf

          • AidanAK47 says:

            Sigh…I hate it when people talk like this. It means I have to read the damn thing three times just to make sure that I got it. So lets break it down.

            Basically people tend to use a persons taste to judge them as a means of pumping up their own superiority complex and placing another individual lower than them.
            To which I say, well duh. That’s obvious.
            This in turn stifles creativity because in order to be good, works are forced to conform to popular opinion. An those who do not conform with popular opinion are ostracized.
            Which is a pretty good point. In attempts to make movies gain more money there are test screening which a random group of people could change the entire film. One particular example is with I am legend which was supposed to have a more depressing ending but was changed because the test audience wanted something more actiony.

            And if this isn’t what you are getting at then try to summarize it into a sentence. Because if your goal is to get the point across then the most effective way is to explain it a clearly and concisely as possible. Talking like this is just a pain in the ass for someone reading it and doesn’t show intelligence.
            Actually is this an attempt to try and pump your own superiority by attempting to prove that you are more intelligent than me? If so, I am afraid you only proved yourself a sore loser.

          • jonas says:

            Sorry, I thought you were interested in this kind of things, my bad.

          • AidanAK47 says:

            I don’t mind talking philosophy but the comments aren’t really the best place for it.
            This is an anime site mate, if you want to talk about philosophy try the shoutbox up there.

    • Gan_HOPE326 says:

      Well, honestly, I like those kind of things too, but I don’t think the infographic guys are wrong – in fact, I had reached the same exact conclusions myself, independently, on a simple moment of fridge logic.
      If you think about it, it makes sense. For us, each episode is just 20 minutes of fun, the whole series will amount to less than 12 hours total. For the creators, these are days, weeks, maybe months worth of work. I hardly see these smart writers (who have proven being smart and loving to have fun with what they do) just going for “oh, look, there’s going to be explosions and naked chicks fighting, this is going to be SO AWESOME”. The tongue-in-cheek sexual symbolism was present throughout Gurren Lagann, with its whole spiral thing; it didn’t necessarily mean something DEEP, but it was there as a guideline. It’s easier to write if you have a loose theme, because being forced to adhere to that will give you interesting associative ideas. I can totally see the thought process behind male sexuality -> spiral -> reproduction / DNA / evolution -> galaxies etc. That’s what led to Gurren Lagann. Panty and Stocking was also ripe with jabs at moe culture and fanservice – the tease being that the most ‘available’ girl, Panty, was also the absolute opposite of what anime usually considers attractive, that is a shy, modest girl who does not show any sexual desire. Sex is always present in Imaishi’s works, if only to make fun of those prudish anime who will hypocritically pretend girls don’t have sexual instincts and that the most daring thing a boy and his girlfriend with do in high school is a hand hold and a kiss but still sneak in panty shots and jiggling boobs at every moment. I don’t think it’s a true “empowerment” statement, I think he’s just trolling the average (especially Japanese) viewer.

    • Mazz says:

      “There is no reason to be ashamed.” “There is no reason to feel weak.” “Be comfortable in your own skin.”

      This. I agree this is the message of the show, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn’t change the fact that the fanservice annoys me, but I can accept it as long as the rest of the show is good. So far, I’m digging it.

  4. Lazy says:

    That’s fine and all, but what about the episode?

  5. unentschieden says:

    Do note that we didn´t see who took out the clubs. They ended up crucified with brooms and stuffed into the trash… who was on cleaning duty?

  6. ninjarealist ninjarealist says:

    @psgels I feel that the comments section of your last Yozakura Quartet review, and the shoutbox, influenced the direction of this Kill la Kill episode review. :D

  7. Malkuth says:

    Those revealing outfits and visual pronunciation of the differences between male and female physiology (erroneously labelled as fanservice) is actually part of the plot and is sad that viewers need bullet-point presentations to understand it. Not only in Kill La Kill but in Yozakura Quarter too as well as the Monogatari Series and so on. Unfortunately, none has made similar graphics for those though. It is very tiring to read complaint after complaint about pantyshots and gainaxing boobs, but nothing about unrealistic muscle-bound macho male MCs, shotas, and other stereotypes that sexually objectify guys through equally (if not more) reavealing animation. If nothing else this train of thought is the problem, since it diverts attention from both the anime and social implications. The only thing it achieves is to treat lightly the subject and this way quenching the guilt of pretentious feminists.

    • psgels psgels says:

      “The same goes for the other way around, of course. I mean I’m also tired of the series that objectify men.”

      ^ I did talk about how series that objectify men are also bad. However I believe that those issues should be viewed separately. Both genders are unfairly objectified and no side of the argument should be brushed aside.

      • Aegd says:

        I don’t think the fanservice is the problem. It’s how it’s used badly almost universally. In anime it basically comes down to fanservice being used to target a certain demographic and to dumb down shows.

        I don’t think kill la kill is an example of that. On the contrary, kill la kill is a good example on how to use fanservice in a good way.

        High School of the Dead is a good example on how they ruined a otherwise decent shows with stupid fanservice that made no sense in the context.

        In kill la kill it’s basically the other way around. The fanservice makes sense most of the times and fit the setting and presentation of the story.

        There are also shows that are made with the pretense of having a story, but it only being a hollow shell to present adult situations. Shows like Queens Blade, that’s basically a watered down pornographic anime.

      • Malkuth says:

        >> I did talk about how series that objectify men are also bad. However I believe that those issues should be viewed separately. Both genders are unfairly objectified and no side of the argument should be brushed aside. <> I don’t think the fanservice is the problem. It’s how it’s used badly almost universally. In anime it basically comes down to fanservice being used to target a certain demographic and to dumb down shows. <<

        This is a common over-generalization based on lexical revisionism. Fanservice, like pron are used wrongly by most viewers limited to sexual innuendo related or not plot and character development. First of all it is not limited to sexual innuendo, and second it must always be unrelated to the story. With its original definition you are absolutely right, it degrades an anime by targeting a specific sales group. The problem is that when broadening the term viewers and most importantly reviewers build up a negative bias, and focus their thoughts on the mislabeled fanservice ignoring what they have actually watched.

    • ninjarealist ninjarealist says:

      This comment made me chuckle because I know I’m one of the people who has complained to you vociferously about the pantyshots in YQ (on ASuki). Oh how interconnected is the anime blogosphere.

      But yeah, sorry for tiring you out, Malkuth. :3

      • Malkuth says:

        Don’t worry, at least you can discuss your opinion. Most of the time in AS/MAL/AniDB (but more often bloggers) just complaint about female outfits and/or mannerism, because they sexually objectify them, totally missing what is going on.

  8. Spike says:

    People sometimes get objectification and celebration mixed up because they are focusing on the medium (anime) and not the work itself. Gurren Lagaan’s Kamina was a celebration of GAR and Matoi is an attempt at the polar opposite.

    It’s also a whole lot different from
    Female Character A: How’s your day going?
    Female Character B: It’s going pretty well *insert pantry shot* What’s for lunch?
    Female Character A: *insert sexy pose* Just eating some ramen
    Female Character C: *running into frame with Boobs bouncing* (extra detail given to motion) Hiiiiiiii Guuuuuuiiseeeee!
    Female Character A: *while groping Female Character C* OH YOU’VE GOTTEN BIGGER!!!

    Wow I just wrote an episode that would sell 8k Blurays easily.

    • AidanAK47 says:

      You forgot about the girl walking in eating banana/lolipop suggestively.

    • Gan_HOPE326 says:

      Add in a cute mascot character, an incompetent bland male lead, and put the girls into a school club that does nothing of what’s supposed to do, and you got a best seller right there, sir.

  9. Juno says:

    lol What happened to the episode review? XD

    On the topic in general, I find this political/social cartoon somewhat relevant:

    I think here, it’s a combination of things many guys like to see on girls, and a possible concept of liberating one’s self from social constraints. Especially in Japan, where showing skin is STILL considered bad by social standards. It’s still “fanservice,” but it’s done in a way that supposedly makes it okay to a lot of the audience. That said, it was obviously targeted far more toward the male demographic, no matter who ends up liking it in the end. I definitely see a lot more females enjoying it on this side of the Pacific than in Japan, since female sexualization is starting to be embraced by a lot of females here, who take it with a sense of pride, rather than as an insult.

    On a personal level, though, I still can’t help rolling my eyes. The fanservice is a little too over the top, even if it’s tongue-in-cheek. I still enjoy the show immensely, including the animation and transformation scenes and whatever. But still, this kind of fanservice is always a slight turn-off to me, so to each their own. =P

  10. Jalapeno Bagel says:

    “And in my personal experience, the best shows are the ones that don’t care about the shounen or shoujo label, but are just catered to create a good story for everyone.”

    As long as we’re off-topic from the show, I’ll just say my two cents on this. It’s hard to create any story (let alone a good one) that caters to everyone without knowing what everyone wants. That kind of requires you to care about the genre label and conventions (of course, if it’s by complete coincidence, then you’re a happy prodigy). I don’t know if you’ll agree, but I argue that the best shows are the ones that do what they think is best for the audience they’re aiming for. Like you said, everyone reacts differently to fanservice, but it’s not just limited to that. If you have little hope of satisfying everyone, then might as well focus on satisfying who you want to satisfy.

    I think critical discussion of anime like this frequently goes off on the wrong things: aka, it’s akin to expecting a professional basketball player to have better soccer skills because it’s more well-rounded.

  11. Saitoq says:

    “Personally, I still prefer watching strong female characters who can just be empowered because of who they are, and don’t follow the cosmetic trends.”
    I agree with this. Although I think the reason for why they do this is because that’s how it often works in the real world. If a female wants to be a successful actress for example, in most cases she has to show off quite a lot of cleavage to get there, regardless of how good she is. It’s commentary on what girls very often have to do to survive.
    So what a lot of women do is embracing it, they take charge of their own sex appeal and does it for themselves, if someone enjoys the view, good for them, but overall they do it for themselves. In this show that would be Satsuki’s whole attitude about wearing the kamui.
    I hope as the show goes on Ryuko will become good enough to kick ass even without the kamui, but for now it’s necessary for her to wear it if she wants to even stand a chance.

  12. mulligan says:

    Fanservice discussion aside, I thought this was the best looking episode so far of the five. It’s a relief for me eyeballs not to have manic action or an overcrowded shot composition every ep. Unapologetic craziness is what this series is good at, but great colour design, shot composition and sequence storyboarding can’t hurt.

    It’s early days but I’ve got a feeling that Trigger is almost treating this series almost like an “episodic showreel” of sorts, with each episode showing off a different trick every time. Not a bad way to kick things off for a new studio doing their own original content.

  13. Hogart says:

    I think that there are enough hints that the fanservice isn’t just for cheap thrills and comedy (though they clearly want to have their cake and eat it too). Whether they capitalize on any of the themes they’re toying with remains to be seen, but at least so far the fanservice isn’t much worse for wear than it was in a show like Fujiko Mine.

    I think people are a bit too sensitive about these things anyway. I mean I despise fanservice for fanservice’s sake. It’s a bit insulting unless the entire point of the show is titillation. But I feel that allowing shows to experiment with these kinds of uncomfortable sexual themes is the only way we’ll get over ourselves as a race.

    In short, at least they’re getting us to talk about these things a bit more seriously, and all we’re still watching their dumb hot-blooded highschool anime.

  14. Autumn Season 2013 Preview says:

    I thought 5.5/8 means excellent

  15. kero says:

    Speaking of fanservice, were there any guys who were able to see past the fanservice to watch Free?

    • Hogart says:

      Yeah, I watched Free. My wife gave up on it, but I found the time to watch the last few eps after that.

      • kero says:

        What did you think of the story, and of the fan service? Do you think it would put people off watching an anime even if it was a good one?

        • Hogart says:

          It was a pretty basic and average club anime, really. Nothing special aside from the fanservice and a bit of the usual KyoAni animation budget.

          The only thing other than the novelty of the fanservice that made it worth the watch was some of the attention to detail for the swimming club aspects. But unless you’re “A Day Without Me” on Gar Gar Stegosaurus, that’s probably not enough.

          The fanservice wasn’t so much a problem as it was frankly the only real draw the anime had going for it, because KyoAni wasn’t that serious about the premise otherwise. I give it a pass because it provides me with a handy reality check for boys who try to tell me girls shouldn’t mind the fanservice in their anime.

          • kero says:

            “But unless you’re “A Day Without Me” on Gar Gar Stegosaurus, that’s probably not enough.”



        • Hogart says:

          They were on a swimming club, so they were really into that aspect of Free. I was on a swim team when I was a kid, but that was probably too early in my life for me to really go on a nostalgia binge with Free.

          • kero says:

            ahhh. I get that.

            well sort of. I got into (watching) basketball because of slam dunk, and now I’m pretty much only watching Kuroko no Basuke, because there’s basketball in it.

  16. Jo says:

    I’m gonna say that I am enjoying this show, it’s got great energy and direction and its pretty creative as well, but can I just say something?

    I think you guys are viewing the way the issues surrounding the fanservice in show in a way thats too simplistic. For starters, the female fanservice and male fanservice is not even on the same level because not only does male fanservice happen less, they’re always shown as taking their clothes/ posing for the audience of their OWN accord, while for the girls in Ryuko’s case she constantly looks uncomfortable and unhappy in Senketsu, not to mention the visible ogling from all sides which is absent when male fanservice happens AND the slightly rapey undertones from earlier eps regarding Senketsu. Even when she stops feeling that way it is more about acceptance for Satsuki and Ryuko than anything else, that they HAVE to wear the things they might not want to to achieve what they need to, and damn everyone else who thinks lowly of them for that.

    While this is more than most anime would do regarding fanservice in their own show, does no one feel that this is also inadequate? Can an issue like that which plagues societal attitudes towards young girls today and contributes to victim blaming for things like rape really be explained away by such a simple thing?

    I know this show is not trying to blow our minds with any philosophical debate regarding sexism/feminism or whatevs, but is it wrong to want just some more sensitivity if they’re going to breach the topic anyways?

    • Hogart says:

      Yeah, it might be a bit to ask, it all depends on what their creative goals are and where they decide to go with the series. I think we’ll need to wait at least a few more episodes before we know for sure, because they may have chosen a Gurren Lagann sense of style because they’re aiming for a Gurren Lagann type of twist. Who knows?

      Besides, Studio Trigger is hardly well-established. It’s not like they could just randomly afford to take all the risks in the world, especially if you consider how safe and stale most of the anime the major studios create are. Just being different and taking a risk is impressive enough if they pull it off, so I’d rather be supportive even if they don’t change the world and end up making another, inferior Gurren Lagann.

  17. DmonHiro says:

    I am calling it now:
    1. Mako’s antics are all fake.
    2. She’s either going to betray, or she’s completely broken inside.

  18. RABUJOI says:

    1. Great find on the infographic; it’s a very elegant, eloquent exegesis of Kill la KIll so far.

    2. Like all art, for me the best anime are the ones I and others have the most to say about. This means even an unspeakable horrible anime that spurs elevated conversation (though a real life example escapes me) is “better” than a boring anime about which nothing need be said or drawn from it. Whatever its controversies, KLK is evoking discussion with levels of nuance, which is good.

    3. It’s not just that the fanservie in YQ is bad and a waste of time, it’s that there’s no reason for it to exist beyond titilating a portion of the audience, which may well be the majority, but is still unnecessary. You can say lots about the fanservice in KLK, but you can’t say much of anything about Nanami Ao flashing her shimapan or Nurse Juri stripping off her uniform to reveal a bikini.

    4. YQ itself knows that its fanservice is useless, to the point where it’s including it for “compliance purposes”, or possibly even as tongue-in-cheek. The fanservice is a resolute afterthought, inserted in places where its absense wouldn’t necessarily be missed. Fanservice is made to be crucial to the themes of KLK, but it’s simply tacked-on and irrelevant to the themes of YQ.

    5. It’s telling that the most prominent female character – Hime – shows the least amount of skin; in fact, she’s downright covered up most of the time. Unlike the women in KLK, her gender and sexuality play little or no role in her development as a character. Rather, she has had to work hard since rising to the mayorship as a young child to gain the trust, respect, and love of the townsfolk, most of whom are her elders.

  19. Sword Testing Cliff says:

    I still prefer watching strong female characters who can just be empowered because of who they are, and don’t follow the cosmetic trends.

    “Balsa” “Torogai” “Faye” “that chick from the 12 kingdoms(Yoko I think). . .actually a vast majority o fthe women from that show” “Probably ALL the female characters from LOGH” “main character from Psycho pass”
    And now that I think more about it, actually a lot of the women from Moribito were written extreemly well. I think that frankly that show should be common viewing for new writers on how to portray women.

    99.999999% of writers don’t know how to write women, period. It’s not their fault either. How women are as people, is VERY different than how many people in the “female empowerment” demographic Want to see women in media. Writers, studios, directors, company chairs know this. Which is why most writters couldn’t be bothered to actually acurately portray female characters in media (yes this happens in western tv a lot too)

    Pretty much the prerequisite for “female character” = man with tits & no penis, and looks pleasing to the male demographic to get more sales”

    Because that’s pretty much how they act/portrayed.

    There are a few execptions and all the ones I can think of off the top of my head that I’ve seen.

    Pretty much nowdays, how much money you make (especially as an anime) is pretty dependant on how sexual/female powery(there’s a HUGE Cuckholdery demographic among the male population of anime watchers)
    the main female characters are, OR how “moe” they are (O HAI THAR K-ON. . .and your 238423945523 clones)

    That’s just the way it is now and the way its gonna be for a while.

    THIS show gets away with that because everything is just way over the top, that its pretty much making fun of all of that. (while cashing in at the same time.)When you go over the top, you pretty much become a parody and all that “Sexism” seriousness doesn’t apply. Personalyl I think people are thinking way too much about it, Although on the other hand the show is pointing out how rediculous the industry is with writers pretty much being bad at writing women/overly pandering to different demogrpahics, rather than just making something. . .GOOD (Hello breaking bad, game of thrones.)

  20. Faruk says:

    Err you didnt review the episode.

  21. Taiga says:

    So.. what was the episode about?

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Ep. 4 of Tiger Mask was a lot better than the last 3, quite a hyped fight that was a full 6mins long. Will continue watching in hope of an awesomely long final fight.
Kaiser Eoghan
Kaiser Eoghan
Going back to the fanservice topic, its very easy to complain about it in anything but then something actually comes along that actually does it for you. I mean I always say that I don't watch a show/movie for its fanservice elements and stick with pictures on image boards, but then I ended up seeing a film where I actually got something out of the fanservice while watching the film its.
Kaiser Eoghan
The oujia prequel was competent genre fare, the director cared about the characters and every now and the built up a decent mood. Although jump Scares are there . And I always appreciate a horror film having a mean spirited ending. One of the rare cases where the young actors do well in a horror film. The pace is a bit uneven, rushed and a bit laggy .
Kaiser Eoghan
In the sense of how messed up/especially bleak those two episodes were.
Kaiser Eoghan
There was the sense too with both those episodes of "Jesus...I wasn't ready for that...."
Kaiser Eoghan
Though the first episode of the first season and the third episode of season 3 are very hard to beat. Adding to what I thought of s3 ep3 I felt that one hit me on the same level as s1 ep1 did so.
Though in previous seasons I generally only really liked 2 out of the 3.
@Kaiser, though the previous seasons where only 3 episodes long and you enjoyed 3 out of 6 in this season. So yo essentially get the same amount of enjoyment as previous seasons.
Kaiser Eoghan
Based on my comments, it looks like I had a mixed reaction to the third season. Three out of six, but the great was was great and forgives it but I still feel that there was more of a consistentancy in quality in the other seasons. I enjoyed every story in seasons 1 and 2.
Kaiser Eoghan
The final episode felt like a movie all on its own, I'd have gladly watched another thirty minutes of it, ending was a nice punch in the gut.
Just finished black mirror season 3. I hear people basically complaining that it's not as strong as the previous two season but I disagree. I really enjoyed this and this is a show that deserves much more episodes. Personal favorite is between shut up and dance and hated in the nation. Worst I thought was San Junipero. Overall thought each episode was interesting.
Kaiser Eoghan
On the upside I loved black mirrors fifth episode, I'm a sucker for war/action-dramas and I particularly liked the tech in this one.
Kaiser Eoghan
Yeah this is impossible for me to sit through, the romance part is also rather dull.
Kaiser Eoghan
Eh, this fourth episode is plodding and trite, feels like a bad, poorly dated 90s film.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Third episode also instilled a great sense of paranoia.
@Kaiser: thanks for that mate. I have too much to say for Flipflappers but to put them all in coherent flow is goddamn hard. And like I said I still fell I left many details out: that gung-ho potato or Yayaka and the twins
@Friend: jugding from the last convention I went to, people loved Re:Zero customs (Emilia and Rem, Ram were highlights. Or you could try RWBY characters (I for once love to see someone cosplay Pirrha Nikos or Velvet Scarlatina)
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: Didn't care much for new black mirrors second episode, then again I'm not really the target for that story. The third episode while a bit heavyhanded and predictable was suspenseful, nasty/mean and I liked that about it, did in 50 minutes what some thrillers fail to achieve in two hours.
Holo is a good one :0
Materials aren't a problem at all for the most part, except for anything too crazy like working in brass. I'd prefer it to be characters I'm familiar with.
Does it matter to you that they're from shows that you like, or are you just in it for the challenge?
@Friend Aidan has some good ones there. I'd also give the cast of Akame ga Kiru a shot, I don't like the series but it has a lot of neat character designs.
I was thinking simple as I didn't know what kind of materials you got on hand. I was also thinking of Holo from spice and wolf or Kino from Kinos journey either.
Mm, Tatsumaki might be not challenging enough to design for. Doesn't Shiki simply wear either a coat or Japanese kimono? I do work in set design and not in character prop design, but I'd love to try something that would let me reasonably challenge myself.
@Friend, Spit balling here but Tatsumaki from One Punch Man? I know the costume for that one would be simple enough. Or maybe Shiki from Kara No Kyoukai?
*I don't want to do anything too complex for my first try, but I also don't want to do anything boring. Boring would be a character like Rukia or Celty. Any ideas?
I remember talking about this with Emma/Kaiser before, but has anyone here gone cosplaying at an expo before? I thought it would be neat to try designing my own costume and try something else beside drawing on a computer.
@Kaiser, I am up to episode 4. 3 has been the best one so far.Though in all these episodes I pretty much figured out the twist from the get go. Still this shows always tends to get you thinking.
Kaiser Eoghan
I think the roles/identity thing with flipflappers, at least with the protaganist does fit in well with adolescence.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Aidan: I've only seen the first episode so far. I felt the acting was intentional and reflected the satire Brooker was going for on the shallow nature of society. Bleak as ever but gloriously grotesque.
Kaiser Eoghan
@Mario:Good in depth reviewing there Mario of flipflappers episode three.
Good god this first episode of black mirror is hard to watch. I know exactly how it's going to turn out but it's just so damn painful to watch.
Well, tbh up to where I've seen there's not much explicit yaoi in yuri on ice, only a lot of fujoshi fuel.
@Kaiser. thanks for the torrent. Gonna blaze through this today.
@Topgavin, as someone who watches a metric ton of anime I am rather surprised at that estimate that 90% of it contains Yuri.
My god those gay scenes in Yuri on Ice are hard to watch for me. Wonder if this is how it feels to be a girl watching 90% of normal anime nowadays.
okay, Flip Flappers episodic review was up. This is my lengthiest weekly review so far and I still feel I missed a lot of points. Damn you Flip Flappers
Kaiser Eoghan
You have seen the light, not needing to know everything thats happening to enjoy something ^_^
Kaiser Eoghan
I've given some consideration to reviewing that oujia film followup.
Whether you see one or the other is entirely up to your preferences, so it makes no difference to me which is worse. I have gotten very tired of generic character types, but again that's just because of the things I decide to regularly follow.
I will say if it must come down to either unnatural dialogue or unnatural character types, at leas the character type is speaking their own words and not the words of the script writer.
Or was that a black and white fallacy? Maybe it was a little of both.
@Realjustified, K-Off wasn't agreeing with me. That's a Moving the Goal Posts logical Fallacy but well I will answer regardless. Honestly it's preferable to have neither. The big mistake you are making here is that you are putting down a condiction that a show must have one or the other. But both cartoons and anime can have both. I just think it's a lot more prominent in cartoons than anime.
Like, having read hundreds of harem manga over the years, a majority of the ultimate love interest always happens to be the first girl the protagonist meets.
Wait wait wait wait. Aidan and K-Off. I get that dialogue in cartoon can seem like it was written by a script writer, but at the same time, lots of anime have characters whose sole purpose is entirely scripted. The whole spectrum of "deres" and everything. What do you think is worse? Unnatural dialogue, or unnatural character types?
You guys should really go fuck yourself, it's a solution and it's nothing short of great!
You guys should really watch the first 4 episodes of Bungo, it's a prequel and it was nothing short of great!
omg!! I just realized To be Hero was one of the show that I reviewed its 1st episode back in Chinese Animation post. I watched raw then though
forgive me if I'm a bit too overwhelmed by Flip Flappers... For this episode alone I took like 25 screenshots...trying to write a review now...
I have absolutely no idea what is going on in Flip Flappers plot. And yet for some reason I am OK with that.
Anyone out there that's a fan of crude humor should go watch ep.3 of To Be Hero. Certinately stepped it up a notch from the last two humor-wise.
One downside I can think of already is that I'm bound to lose or break one of the detachable controllers. The cost for those pieces is what I'm most interested in.
Nintendo Switch hmm? Honestly it looks too good to be true. I expect some major downsides to this thing.
I like cartoons, don't get me wrong. Certainly good for a change of pace. But there is something about the way they are written that I find rather distracting.
I don't know, maybe if I said it's like the difference from how characters talk in movie vs how characters talk in a sitcom?
@K-Off, I said one liner's or jokes. Not one liner jokes. It's hard to explain. Basically when I hear a conversation in anime even if it is based in stereotypes, it at least feels like a conversation that's being had in the moment. In cartoons however there is a layer of artificiality and it feels like characters know what a person is going to say and has a response prepared.
That's probably why some of my favorite anime in recent years haven't been very heavy on character archetypes, or were either parodies of it.
Comedic dialogue with anime in recent years have leaned too much on the idea of playing off character archetypes. The collected character vs the energetic character, for one. I'd like to see more variety. Some more word play, hyperbolic humor, body humor, etc etc.
@Aidan Not quite sure what you mean by that, because it's certainly not even a majority of cartoons that rely on cheap one liner jokes. I suppose it's entirely up to taste, but I can appreciate the energy in cartoons like Steven Universe or Regular Show when compared to the increasingly repetitive dialogue found in some recent anime.
@Topgavin: I just read that review and his main reason being Shelter is pretentious. oh well! Can't never please anyone.
Thought I'd check out the reviews for Shelter on MAl and the top review is a 1/10. Apparently because it's a cute girl we sympathise with her more, which is bad because reasons. I mean.. what? MAL never ceases to amaze me
@Mario, no. It's more that the dialogue keeps trying to push out one liners or jokes regardless of whose talking.
@Aidan: maybe because they spoke in your native language do you can feel that it's artificial, ya know? I know I have the same problem with Vietnamese drama/ cartoon and maybe Japanese people have that same issues with anime?
By which I mean, the way characters talk in cartoons is very...artificial. Like you can tell that the dialgoue was clearly written beforehand and it never really sounds natural. At least to me.
@Anon, I wouldn't. The writing and structure are too cartoon. What with the episodic nature and dialogue that generally pushes for a comedic tone.
Kaiser Eoghan
Flanagan also directed absentia which I haven't seen yet but I think someone I came across of 4chan linked it to being lovecraftian?
Kaiser Eoghan
Oculus was a film of two halves for me. Hush was a pretty standard home invasion thriller, making the victim deaf was an interesting twist but not as unique as you might think, still suspenseful though.
Kaiser Eoghan
I never saw the first oujia film. Though Mike Flanagan who did the sequel, he's never made a bad movie but he's never really made a great one either.
Kaiser Eoghan
I stick to the firm belief that cartoons and anime, visually should do and be their own thing. I'll prefer a western artstyle for cartoons rather than one pretending to look like anime style.
But this is a good topic and I'm sure everyone has their own opinions so I'm looking to hear some more arguments
@anon352392: no they aren't. For me not because of where their production based, nor their intended audience, but rather their styles, both visually and storytelling-ly, are different
Anime,” they assert, is not a “style” of illustration or animation.
That's where I differ to those guys. For me, anime is a style. In that sense, I consider RWBY, and Canadian-produced short Flutter as an anime. Thunderbolt Fantasy is not and anime-influence shows/movies that are intented for Western audience like AniMatrix or Afro Samurai are anime
@Anon nah they wouldn't be because they aren't made by a japanese producer for the japanese market. Quality isn't the question, production is
NX and Red Dead Redemption 2 trailers tomorrow.
They are good series and i honestly like them alot more than most anime series, would their quality make them anime?
What about cartoons like Steven Universe, Gravity Falls, Wander Over Yonder, Star Vs The Forces Of Evil?
In other news a sequel to an absolutely terrible horror movie called Ouija is out and it's...actually pretty good? Wondering if critics were paid off or it is legit good. Well it did have the guy who was behind Oculus and that was a pretty good movie.
Simplify the term down enough and anime is literally anything animated but the whole point of the term is to distinguish it. For to call Spongebob an anime makes me want to projectile vomit. Point is this, you say you watched a cartoon, people think Tom and jerry, Scooby doo etc. You say you watched an anime, people think Cowboy bebop, Attack on titan, etc. Whole point of the term.
For example, I don't consider Avatar or RWBY to be anime for while they use anime style, the writing is fundamentally structured like an American cartoon. Through I would consider Bloodivores an anime even though it was made by a Chinese animation company, making it technically a Chinese cartoon.
As far as what is and isn't anime I honestly think of the term as a means of distinguishing it from cartoon which gives the impression of being for children. It's like Graphic novel is to comic book. Though techically graphic novels are issues of comics bound in book form, the term Graphic novel is often used to distinguish works that go above superhero comics and whatnot.
Basically I think it was due to Porter Robinsons involvement that they didn't consider it anime.
@Aidan: Did the mods give any concrete reasons why they didn't consider it an anime?
@Mario, It wasn't the community that had the problem. It was the mods. The community made it pretty clear that they considered it anime.
So despite the art style is obviously anime, the character speaks in Japanese, and the production was animated by A1 Studios, it's not an anime? Sometimes I feel sad that the anime community keeps limiting themselves with such fixed minds.
I saw it yesterday and yes it was good. For a 5-minute story, they don't make it too overwhelme with details, and still pack an emotional punch. Moreover it elevates the song. Good stuffs.
Shelter was quite good though. It works well and the animation was beautiful. Song is not bad either. It's got a nice emotional punch to it though it's a bit simple a story.
Well anyway I only saw all this because I checked out the video for the first time and wanted to see how others thought of it with a quick scan through reddit. And I get this shitshow instead.
Playing the victim is the one really pisses off the internet. For refusing to admit you f*cked up only encourages people to shove how you f*cked up into your face. That's what really grinds peoples gears.
Yep, seen that too. The mods even put up another tread about the video and tried to guilt trip people by saying they got death threats. Look, internet rules 101. If you said or did something stupid admit to it and just walk away. Do not try to deflect blame or play the victim, that only adds fuel to the fire.
@Aidan oh yeah saw that live lol. Porter himself even commented on twitter about it, gotta love internet drama
So did anyone happen to catch the big old shitstorm of that Shelter music music when a mod of the Anime subreddit decided it wasn't "Anime" enough and removed the discussion post about it? Oh internet drama...what silly nonsense.
Finally caught up with JoJo. Diamond is Unbreakable has turned out to be much better than Stardust Crusaders. Should have waited for the season to finish through as I really loved marathoning it.
I had a feeling that might be the case considering the source materail for luger.
@Mario Oh I watched that, certinately worth it. Packed more story that some 12-episode shows do nowadays and gorgeous animation.
and I will check out "Shelter" music video to see what all the fuss is about
*this weekend to be exact.
Sounds like Luger Code 1951 is an OVA that will air next week, the same air date with "my" Zaregoto OVA.
@Mario: doesn't sound real at all to me lol
@Mario, I might be able to manage. If all else fails I can talk about the past of these historical figures.
While I don't mind watchinng Drifters, I swaer if I had to cover that show, I couldn't come up with anything to say.
Do you guys know what language the fairies speak in Drifters? It does sound like a genuine language
@topgavin: humanity has declined is a great show. It has good writing and dark, witty sense of humor. I could talk about it in length but psgels pretty much covered it all. He was really impressed by that show however.
That should be me covered till the weekend. Why do all my shows air on the weekend...
@Mario nah I've watched the whole thing but I'd heard about it at the start of this year and put it off. The dialogue between her and the fairies was great stuff, probably gonna rewatch it this weekend now that you mention it
Alright, I got three posts written up and will be throwing them out in about two hours or do.
I thought you've finished it. Yeah I love her character a lot, so cynical but witty. My favorite moment was when she read about fairy's plan to invent religions. She was like "so religions are invented?" (beat) "I've learn something new today". Priceless
@Mario Oh nice, it was one that I had heard about but never got round to. To put it in simple anime terms, Watashi is best girl
@topgavin: I just finished the series yo mentioned the other day: humanity is declined. Man, I love it. I know now I have a thing for dark twisted absurdist anime
@Ano340004: the name is Watashi ga Motete Dousunda, or to put it short Motete. I have fun with it but i'm not that enthuastic
@anon the english name is Kiss him, not me. Search through the first impressions if you need the jap name.
then that girl really loves BL (boy love)
what is the name of the anime that the girl is fat and then she got depressed because her favorite boy anime died then she got thin?
Season 7 is awesome so far too. It feels like the tone of the show is finally back to normal and it feels like Adventure Time again.
Whew, I binged all seasons of Adventure Time this weekend. The show hit a low spot in Season 6 but I think it needed to happen...Poor Finn needed the serious character development after what he did to FP.
You guys are too hard on it
Motete is very funny
Kaiser Eoghan
When it comes to gag manga and four-koma, I just eventually reach a stopping point with a comedy series in that format. Even with hidamari sketch.
I think it was typical light novel trash based on what was in the PV. I laughed that despite it being horrible that the crowd still cheered anyway, likely because it had a bath clip in it.
The PV was hilarious. I had no idea what the anime was about.
@Aidan I'm good, I'll stick with Working.
@K-Off, you could switch to something like Gi(a)rlish Number if you like. I for one am really digging the satire of the show. Plus I like that it's basically showing how an utter train-wreck of an anime can be made. That PV in the last episode was truly painful.
Feeling pretty disappointed with Working. I haven't gotten any more cynical with comedies, at least I don't think, and its flaws are so irritating.
@Adam Le, I find that with Comic book dialogue. Which is one of the reasons I have gone off marvel movies. Cartoons have it to a degree as well.
I love the instagram shots in Yuri
Maybe I can have a watch through those live action films and do a compare/contrast to see which version works better. After all movie and tv series are 2 different medium, and live-action vs animation is the topic that we never get tired of
speaking of which, the overlap between anime and live-action adaptation from manga is overwhelming. For this year alone, there were Erased, 3-gatsu no Lion, Fune o Amu, orange, and Chihayafuru (part 1&2). Those were just the ones I know.
@Adam: Don't know which genre you're into but you can try Fune o Amu (The Great Passage)
Adam Le
I can't seem to get into any of these new shows. I don't know, the dialogue always seems off to me and the forced comedy is a big turn off.
Reminds me of a thought I had when I was last at the Getty art museum. People walking past works of art hundreds of years old, but only taking a second-long glance before moving on to the next one. Not their fault really, it's only the professional critics who can understand what they see with depth.
I'm the opposite really, they're getting paid for what they said so they better know their shits
Kaiser Eoghan
I suppose I'm slightly envious of professional critics somewhat.
Sometimes you're just meant to experience the ride you know. I don't watch those explained video anymore because after all it's just one guy's opinions.
Kaiser Eoghan
Kaiser Eoghan
And I mean people who art professionals or students.
Kaiser Eoghan
I guess I'm just unsure of something, how many people watching "arty" stuff are able to pick it up on their own. By looking up an "explained video" or "explained essay" to get it, am I copping out?
Kaiser Eoghan
I feel like I've begun getting on board with the european art stuff but am really only scratching the surface with the Chinese and that stuff.
Kaiser Eoghan
And find myself missing whats going on sometimes.
Kaiser Eoghan
I'll admit I do find it frustrating, that even though I can like art films, emotionally connect at times, appreciate the visual techniques and admire them for being so different without looking up analysis by people far smarter than myself I honestly feel lost sometimes as to the meaning.
@Kaiser: Apichatphong Weerseethakul's films are so otherworldly and spiritual that I wouldn't dare to call them "dreams" anymore. Check out his "Uncle Boonmie", "Syndromes and a Century", "Cemetery of Splendors". he has such singular vision that just watch and experience his films are rewarding enough
@afgm: well, if we really go over-analyze it, bunnies can represent desire for example ^^
like eating sweet snow is so randomness for me
@Badesh: the things you said might be something I might do in the future. After all I love dissecting symbolism. But for Flip Flappers I need to know more what are intentional and what are randomness first
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