Posted by SuperMario on 4 December 2017 with categories: Currently Watching:, Houseki no Kuni

Houseki approaches summertime this episode and this week feels like a breather after the intensity from the last few weeks, by that I mean Phos didn’t get into any real trouble by the end of this week. Not to say this episode is anything less amazing compared to last several weeks. One of the factor that I still regarded Grimgar quite highly despite its shaky overall production is that they nailed the feeling of grief admirably, something that the anime medium usually glosses over too quickly. The loss of someone close/ dear to you usually leaves a lasting, permanent impact, so naturally I found myself tuning out whenever the main protagonist overcomes that loss just several episodes like nothing ever happen. Here in Houseki, the loss of Antarc still lingering over Phos, and although Phos doesn’t have any significant alteration in their physical body, this week marks a tremendous change in Phos’ personality. At the beginning of this episode, we see the more collected, no-nonsense Phos and they still mourn over the loss of Antarc, whom they feel their capture was entirely their fault. The nightmare/hallucination of Phos about Antarc, in particular, is a powerful and realistic moment about people gem who experienced post-traumatic stress disorder.

Back to spring, when all the gems wake up from hibernation with a new job, and new pairs of spring uniform. Phos receives unanimous popular for their new alloy arms, which can stretch, turn, attack and making a wall at will. The other gems, behave exactly like children who receive new toys, at first scare of Phos’ arms, but then the curiosity takes a better of them. With the old Phos, the sudden popularity and recognition from their peers are all they could ask for, but now that Phos actually has all the attention, they don’t know how to deal with it. “Not a single good thing has come from it”. This line nails perfectly how the current Phos feel. Phos is now strong at battle, can single-handed hold off the Lunarians’ attacks, just like what they wished right at the beginning of the series. But everything else is off. They still can’t fulfil what they promised to Cinnabar, they lost what they consider their best comrade. My favorite moment of this episode has to be when Phos cries their gold tears, in which Kongou sensei calmly responses “This is merely a defect found in ancient organism and nothing to fault yourself for”. Somehow this line really sums up Houseki’s eye-opening world flawlessly.

One thing I didn’t pick up on my last coverages is how the Lunarians have several different types attacking the Gems. I guess the different in types all depending on the Jewel materials they used to attack the Gems. My take is that the old, classic type is the type that has none of such material. Which comes to a fascinating scenario: Imagine how Phos would react when the Lunarians use Antarc’s fragments as their core materials. Granted, Antarc is fragile in nature so there is a low chance that would happen. One more interesting factor in this episode is how Phos slowly lost their memories as well. Not sure when they response to Rutile that they don’t remember Cinnabar is just a total scam or the truth, but with Phos slowly losing their memory (due to their loss of fragments), changing both in their personality and appearance, what’s left to the original Phos except their gorgeous Tomoko Kurosawa’s voice? Are they considered the same gem then? As this is the episode dedicated to the new personality of Phos, the background visual appropriately has more colourful setting with the yellow reflection from the sun. The visual motif changes as well, as previous episodes we often see Phos lying on the grass, this time though they’re standing on it, but still feel lost and directionless. The visual and the music is as dead on as ever. This might be a slow episode, but Houseki again successfully establishes Phos as a compelling protagonist, and I really hope in the last 3 episodes, we gonna have a powerful arc that close up this magnificent, unique anime in a satisfying manner.

10 Responses

  1. Strength says:

    The good old Phos is gone (like Antark), but this is how it should be. Phos appears to be punishing itself out of guilt. It’s disheartening, but I love it. Phos needs to let go and find a new role to be comfortable in, if circumstances allow, which something tells me will not be happening.

    I thoroughly enjoyed the episode, in fact I watched it about three times. All those reactions were priceless. Especially Dia going all puni-puni.

    However! I have more than a praise this time around.

    This episode had the misfortune of dealing with anchoring Phos’ development to the rest of the show, or, it sadly chose the lighthearted way about it, which finally caused a dip in the stellar narrative consistence. Since when is this full-on moe? The humor and all was great, but I can no longer liken this show to Mushishi or Ergo Proxy, shows which managed to retain an impersonal distance from their depictions and mature style all throughout (yes I’m aware of Ergo’s quiz and disney episodes, but those were thematically full in line with the rest).

    A good deal of run time of this episode was given away to unnecessary humor and nonsensical interaction noise that served no other purpose than to even out the lingering depression. It’s sad if you cant even do a single depressing episode! I would expect these group antics from (not so) hollow idol shows or stuff like Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio (where Kongo and Takao rightfully stole the show for me), but not here. Individual humor, yes, collective no.

    I would really prefer a more serious episode. Rutil was more interested in Phos’ hair than Antark’s absence! That make no sense…

    There were more problems.
    – characters (other than Phos) had no room whatsoever to mourn Antark – a great inconsistency and it is not a result of bad pacing
    – Yellow Diamond’s dubbing was off, at one point the mouth moved on its own for a sec or two
    – too much focus on Phos, I’m afraid she is taking over as far as narrative is concerned. It which would be a shame.
    – Ametyst appears utterly incompetent (being defeated by new type of Lunarian once and now showed “how it’s really done” by Phos)
    – The cast has been (temporarily) split to Phos and “them”. Not only was the weight of the individual characters undermined, showing them all together (too often) has a negative effect of taking away from the mystery, where the viewer does not have to put the group together in his own mind by connecting the relationships between the individuals, and instead is conveniently spoonfed the entire structure all at once. Due to smaller group size (compared to say Claymore, which has 47 individuals times 2+ generations) this noticeably shrinks (perceptually) the world. Focusing on the collective also diminishes individual personalities, takes away subtlety and outputs superfluous instant gratification in form of “group power dynamics”, which frankly is the worst a show can do to its cast – to define characters by their role in the group.

    • Alhazred23 says:

      A couple things to note about the other gems’ behavior:

      Over the entire duration of their long lives, none of them have interacted with Antarc for more than perhaps a couple of days each year, if that. As such, Antarc’s loss is probably on an emotional level less like the loss of a close sibling and more like the loss of, say, a distant uncle that you hardly ever see; i.e. much less affecting all around.

      Their childish behavior might be partially attributable to an excess of energy after waking up from a three-month nap, though i think the contrast to Phos and Kongou and the accompanying emotional disconnect is intentional. Despite some maturity displayed by the elders such as Rutile and Yellow, the gems almost seem stuck in a sort of neoteny, perpetually unable to mature or develop. Phos has been violently broken from this stagnation, and thus Phos becomes a secondary driving force of the plot (along with the evolving tactics of the lunarians.)

      Also, the Amyethyst twins weren’t implied to be incapable of handling that old-style lunarian, they just weren’t given the chance because Phos was there; the same thing would have happened if Bort had been a step or two faster.

      • Strength says:

        1 Sure, but this (and many other things) weren’t articulated or given any focus, which is my issue.

        2 Nothing to say other than agree, sounds legit.

        3 Yeah, that’s why I said appear. But normally you would want each character to get a chance to shine. This episode cemented the twins’ role for me as: twins that never amount to anything but mean no harm.

    • Niello says:

      Antarct only appears in the winter and other gems barely ever interacted with him. Not to mention that this isn’t their first time losing a gem in the hundreds or thousands of years lived. Their reactions are auite natural. Also doing an episode like this is better than doing a forced “look at how gloomy we’re getting!”. It highlights Phos current disconnection from the other gems, his lose of cheerfulness and his attempt to deal with the discrepancy between how he got what he had wanted but it’s actually not that great. Over all it managed to convey the hollowness much better than doing what you’ve suggested.

      • Strength says:

        Fair points. Pls, consider my other replies (you guys really went all out on me).

        Still, the world is not black and white, too much contrast can hurt the image.

    • SuperMario SuperMario says:

      I agree with what Alhazred23 and Niello said. The Gems have very different mentality when it comes to their relationship with other Gems: They will go out their ways to help (just like how the entire team looking for Phos in a beach). but when one of them is taken to the Moon, they don’t give much thought or empathy to it. It’s Phos who goes against the stream here.

      The humors might be too light-heart like you said, but they don’t come for nowhere or being pointless. We see the Gems’ childish antics several times before, and doing that here in this episode just to show how alien Phos is with their own team. This story, after all, is a coming-of-age of Phos and the whole narrative is a bout Phos growing, both physically and mentally, that stands apart to other Gems.

      • Strength says:

        My nitpick is not about featuring humor, but presentation.

        Feels like many of the jokes were there to lighten up the mood and for contrast, not to actually pronounce character’s personalities. That is what I mean by unnecessary. Simply put, I think at times the episode didn’t try hard enough and only slapped a humor on top.

        It worked as much as it possibly could, but the show almost switched genre and I guess I take issue with that, no matter how marvelously done.

        • Niello says:

          Hmmm, I think that’s because the old Phos is naturally a comedic kind of character with his snarky comments and playfulness. The lighter stuff this episode from other characters are meant to show that he’s no longer a part of this, but at the same time we also get comedic moments from Phos himself, which is meant to convey that the original Phos is still there deep inside even if obscured by heavy grief and guilt. I think it also helps with showing that Phos is tired.

    • Strength says:

      Correction: Not Kongo and Takao, but Hyuuga and Takao. Kongo was hardly a comic relief character.

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CHANGE USERNAME
Niel
V Salty
SuperMario
Houseki no Kuni won only 1 for Best CGI
SuperMario
Most surprise winner was Mahoutsukai for Best Drama against Rakugo, 3-gatsu, Made in Abyss
SuperMario
@Lenlo: My Hero Academia 2 took home the most awards (as far as I remember: Best Boy, Best Girl, Best Hero, Best Villain, Best Action, Best OP) but Made in Abyss won AOTY (along with Best Score)
niello
Also, is there anyway I can convince people here to pick up Miira no Kaikata again?
niello
Looks like I can use this site on my laptop again.
Lenlo
Oh snap forgot to watch that. Who won what? Their site isnt updated yet
SuperMario
And I thought My Hero Academia had the main award in the bag. Congrats to Made in Abyss
SuperMario
Anyone here watching Crunchyroll Awards?
SuperMario
@Kaiser: The newest episode of Violet Evergarden had no title. I just don't see any purpose of that to be honest
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Sunny was a solid slice of life series by Matsumoto.
Anonymous1839346
@Anon Weak villains, over-dramatized, protagonists suffer random psychotic breakdowns and all of the elements of the movie do not come thematically together like the creators probably thought they did. Of course, I may just be stupid. For me Ping Pong was waaay better
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Not everyone is going to like the style that film is done in and apparently some think it compresses its source material poorly, but I don't really mind.
Anonymous1838586
can anyone state some of the problems they have for tekkon kinkreet. If they have watched it
Kaiser-Eoghan
Watching Kondou in every episode of after the rain, makes it hit home that in 10 or so years I'll be 40 =<
Kaiser-Eoghan
As far as friendships between men and women are concerned, I do believe in it, although especially when I was a teenager I was always worried about things turning into something more.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*kondou's
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: I think Chihiro might be knfou's wife.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Slight error on the violet evergarden review, episode title isn't showing up at the top.
Anonymous1838382
Media/art have the power to depict the rare and unusual. It is completely normal for the rare to be common in art. I understand what you mean Amagi, but don't hold it (purely) against the consumers. It's the nature of media itself and in that regard, it is a good thing.
Anonymous1838379
Media/art have the power to depict the rare and unusual. It is completely normal for the rare to be common in art. I understand what you mean Amagi, but don't hold it (purely) against the consumers. It's the nature of media itself and in that regard, it is a good thing.
Amagi
What I acutally find worse are series that make that canon and it happens all the time (not only in anime). Usually female/male though. I have nothing against romance but I hate how proper friendships between men and women can't exist in cartoons/anime. It's so common in real life but media acts if it was an alien concept to them. Maybe because of the target audience I don't know.
Amagi
I think these pairing of friends aren't just the fault of crazy fans, it's because anime often has a problem depticting friendships. Almost all friendships (at least those among girls) are fetishized to no end in order to either add ecchi or cute ambivalent scenes, and people get used to that. There are good examples of friendships, Rakugo is one, a current one would be Sora Yori, but it's rare.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Interesting that it's being updated to modern America though, I imagine the crime figures have changed alot though.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But I don't like sexualize Banana fishe's protag given how theres line in the manga later on that and I somewhat paraphrase where he speaks of the villain "I can't even remember the number of times Dino Golzine raped me"
Kaiser-Eoghan
Coincidentially as we're on this topic, I just watched the pv for that josei action series Banana fish coming out in July and from skimming the manga years ago , people will be insinuating a relationship between the two leads when its left ambiguous, even though the protaganist has homosexual leanings.
Anonymous1837358
Anonymous1836963 - Well according to some bl tropes, women are built into those stories to block the pairing advances. There's also the one off character that isn't romantically inclined but popular like Floppy in MHA or Bulma in Dragon Ball. I do think it's bad when like in Kingdom Hearts, Sora cries for Riku and was just ok with reuniting with Kairi.
Anonymous1837334
@AK Me again. Watch the epilogue in the last ep of Korra S3!
Anyway, basically we agree, I simply say that with Korra, it's explainable and non-invasive. Like, you'll always have romance shoehorned into mainstream series and Asami >>>>> Mako.
Lenlo
What, women cant be gay?
AidanAK47
@Anon, that's not true. They can still get beat up in order to inspire the boys to fight harder.
Anonymous1836963
It's why Sasuke/Naruto never happened. They had to keep Sakura relevant.
Anonymous1836963
If everyone in Anime were gay, there would be absolutely no use for women in any shonen plot. Sad but true.
Lenlo
The push to make Rakugo into a gay relationship has always annoyed me.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Feck, I re-read it, shows how shit my memory is.
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, No I didn't. I pretty much ruled it out it as early as episode three. I stated that people thought it and mentioned that it could lead to some interesting story developments. But I made it clear I didn't like the idea and felt it cheapened their bond.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lies it was hulk and iron man not hulk and black window....I mean jesus come oooon like =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
Some crack pairings can be extremely silly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: And I said it after remembering ages ago you said the same about guts and griffith and how people cheapened that relationship.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: I also stated that yesterday.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: In fairness initially some of us, yourself included thought he might of been at first before it was clear he wasn't gay.
AidanAK47
Truth be told, it pisses me off. It takes a bond of much deeper meaning and reduces it down to something far more simplistic and primal. Can't be that these two hold a trust for one another that's beyond simple biology. Nope, THEY WANNA BONE.
AidanAK47
But then again, the internet often over interprets friendship as sexual attraction. During Rakugo's airing I see people absolutely convinced that Yakumo was gay. Evidence? One bath scene apparently from his POV which made it seem like he was checking out Sukeroku and the fact that the author made a lot of BL. Other than that, nothing.
AidanAK47
Then again, romance in this series was always the worst written part. So many spontaneous relationships.
AidanAK47
Alright maybe you can make the arguement that later down the line while traveling they gained romantic feelings for each other. I can somewhat buy that. But there, in the last few minutes of the series? Hell no.
AidanAK47
To me it's like the Hulk and Black Widow romance. They had literally no real interaction and yet the internet somehow decided they were a couple. Then they tried to crowbar into the second avengers movie and it was just as awkward and out of place as you would expect.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Nah I don't see it. The two did really have that much interaction. Sure they got closer as seasons went on but never to a romantic level. At best it was about decent friends. Friendship I understand but that does not lead to romance. Both Korra and Asami had heterosexual relationships and no evidence shows them being bi or getting interested in swinging for the other fence.
Anonymous1836097
Yes, it was pandering, but it can be explained and it does make sense. I could complain about many things (like the random pairings), but Asami-Korra is definitely not among them.

PS: Korra was very feministic show, I wonder what's all that about.
Anonymous1836097
Asami was strangely always getting the short end of the stick (no power, noone to lean on... and it was aggravating to see no character to care). They were both betrayed enough times to get scarred and they both realized that (the one) constant around them is their friendship.
Anonymous1836097
@AK I dont consider Legend of Korra a well written show, but it does some things pretty well. Asami-Korra pairing certainly did not come out of nowhere (e.g. S3 last ep) and it makes sense as well.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Right in the KOKORO =O
Kaiser-Eoghan
**larger half of
Kaiser-Eoghan
*episode
Kaiser-Eoghan
For the better half of this weeks after the rain episodes, I was sitting around just watching it do its thing, the second half of the episode particularly near the end was the show at one of of its stronger visual moments and certainly going for the most effecting emotional angle its put out thus far in a way that finally caught me.
AidanAK47
I don't consider Makishima a great villain but one thing I found fantastic was him getting taken off guard by a sudden attack. Loads of anime criminal masterminds somehow plan for every single little detail no matter how unlikely. But this was one case that shows you could plan for ten years and nothing would prepare you for getting suddenly bashed over the head with a motorcycle helmet.
Lenlo
Makishima is a fantastic villain
Anonymous1835766
Kaiser-Eoghan - I think the closest might be Makishima Shogo in Psycho Pass. Just in the opposite sense, showing how flawed an absolutistic system is. Also a scene from that anime, that subverts the notion of how people are shocked by violence.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Moreso than the girls death obsession, I thought the stuff with the mother in the first chapter of yakedo has the potential to go in a more messed up way.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But he fails miserably and no one learns from his crimes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Why can't there be a BENEVOLENT killer character that commits horrible acts solely to shock people and show how horrifying those acts are, out of the delusion that it will inspire a reflection and change in people to NOT, to NEVER do those things.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*higher
Kaiser-Eoghan
Maybe an abused character is a servant in a historical setting with a hierarchy, trapped in societal rules and defeats the obsession with the attacker and raises up against the class system/character of hire social standing that abused them.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Perhaps the cannibal killer character in the story has abandonment, severe paranoia and lonliness issues and sees his crimes as taking people inside him so they'll never leave him.
Kaiser-Eoghan
of psychological depth instead?
Kaiser-Eoghan
For the willingness to throw messed up stuff into stories, I wouldn't mind seeing an analysis thrown in, doing a story about a cannibal character? How about instead of just a gore fest, get inside is head and ask, why does he do this? I hate Ntr and its used as a throwaway turn-on involving rape eroticism, but is there any any way that a story involving that could be framed with some sense
Kaiser-Eoghan
Back on to stuff like goblin slayer, they can take out the rape scenes I wouldn't miss them, although I find them less uncomfortable, BECAUSE they are shown as how wrong rape is, instead of say a doujin playing it up for titilation .
Kaiser-Eoghan
Despite all the talking up of tsunderes, I actually love kuuderes, in the end probably the biggest reason is for how flat chested they are.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Slapstick violence always plays second to dry, dark, screwball or surreal humour.
Bokusen
Also, on tsunderes, me too. I can't stand people using physical violence on someone unless it's in self-defense, or a Fate-type scenario where they all know everyone is trying to kill everyone else. Random physical violence played up as comedy is the worst.
Bokusen
@Kaiser Ah, so it was referring to bondage. I was skimming through posts and must've missed that. Bondage still creeps me out a bit, but if it's a fetish thing I can at least understand the whole exaggerated gender roles thing.
AidanAK47
In regards to Tsunderes, yep that was a bad choice of words there Kaiser. But over time I have come to find Tsunderes more agavating. Tsunderes like Rin are fine but those that beat the crap out of the guy they like and are expected to be forgiven cause they get embarrassed can go straight to hell.
AidanAK47
Also who cares who Korra ends up with? She a goddamn horrible character. I hated her so much.
AidanAK47
Korra was a show that had love realistionships come out of nowhere(And not well written in general) but that one really was just pandering to the Korra/Asami shippers. Not sure where the hell that ship came from to begin with.
Lenlo
I agree Aidan, the love at the end of Korra came out of Left field really
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: It was inappropriate and I shouldn't have said it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Heck one of the reasons I prefer seeing another character with another character or a character simply on their own in a fetish situation is because I can distance myself from it and not feel like I'm touching anything/one.
Kaiser-Eoghan
If anything I meant role reversal.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: I apologize, reading it back it sounds terrible, I was actually referring to bondage where the tsundere pretends to hate it initially but consents .
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: I should state clearly that that is merely a fantasy. The anger on both sides makes it easier because even if things became more physical or intimate it would feel more distant if the talking part was she and myself saying how much we hated it , despite actualily liking it.
Bokusen
"The thing is I utterly hate the personalities of tsundere characters in bitch/dom mode, sends me into a fervor to put them in their place." OK, reading that just creeped me out.
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, well you like screwed up stuff so no surprise.
Try Yakedo Shoujo. Get the feeling you will like that one quite a bit.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Legend of Korra? There was no yuri in that one. No evidence whatsoever. They just had Korra and Asami walk into some light and then announced them gay over twitter. Honesty I didn't see it in the show itself.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Also was it you that recommended happy sugar life to me? That was a pretty good psychological horror manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Going back several messages, I kind of liked goblin slayer oddly.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - Read Sakuranbo Syndrome.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: At the same time I really think more series like after the rain need to come out, showing more sensitive approaches.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Nudity/sex just isn't used functionally well enough or dramatically as it should. Come on, give us a story about passionette characters, sensual/erotic rather than only porn. Or do a scums wish where miserable people are doing it because saaaaad.
Kaiser-Eoghan
kuuchuu is really one of those things I need to re-watch, I became so much more open to weirder shows in the past number of years than I would have been ages ago.
Anonymous1832169
I think my excuse in hentai, is that despair, and subjugation adds drama to a very simple thing. Though Dawn of the Silver Dragon may be the peak of objectification.
Anonymous1832214
Sure, np, though I must be off. Again, nice to chat casually. Been off forums for a while. Bye.
PS: thank you gift for anyone not familiar https://myanimelist.net/anime/6774/Kuuchuu_Buranko?q=kuuchuu
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lets talk about the spring 2018 anime season chart: http://anichart.net/spring-2018
Kaiser-Eoghan
Mods, I'm sorry for hostaging/dominating the chat like this I'll change subject.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I do think official/canon pairings of characters make more sense definitely, non-canon ones can kind of cheapen characters.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I really really want to say though, I totally am not okay with rape in hentai though and I don't like 50 shades of grey.
Kaiser-Eoghan
To get off this subject, funny little random memory here of reading manga in public, back when I was still into fate, some street person sat down next to me and saw a picture of berserk and said "Oh, he's quite ripped isn't he"
Anonymous1832214
@Anon could be
@Kaiser Srsly youd hate Young's Aflame Inferno - narcissistic manipulative elite MC guy plays a sub to a playful manipulative OP demon woman. I love that so much..!
Kaiser-Eoghan
The old artists valued some interesting takes on beauty too, all of those middle aged larger bodies.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Someone has read this and gone off and done an Akira x Satan devilman doujin haven't they?
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the beauty and the beast thing, I wonder if characters like Elias from Mahouyome will become more popular. Monsterboys might end up catching on.
Anonymous1832169
Anonymous1832214 - I think so, I mean we paint angels following that idea.
Anonymous1832214
Thx for the talk guys (and girls). Btw. I'm the guy with weird nicks, Evaluation, Strength, Victim, etc in case anyone's wondering.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think regarding role switching and whether I prefer being dom or sub is definately based on which gender I'm playing, this goes back to the cliches of girl=the submissive character man=is the non-submissive.
Anonymous1832214
There's something about androgynous features, is there?
Kaiser-Eoghan
accept of course for the sensei, who looks like one-punchman.
Anonymous1832214
Seems consistent with your preferences towards domination. Open your heart more and feel the love. They cant help themselves. They need you to get it out. Why not play the mature person, not play the game and accept their flawed selves?
Kaiser-Eoghan
Specifically due the ambiguity.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Houseki's character designs and art is fascinating.
Anonymous1832169
I like the idea of women pretending to be men and men pretending to be women. Not necessarily transgender, just in the sense of playing the role like Hercules and Diomedes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Hating them makes it easier/better aswell.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The thing is I utterly hate the personalities of tsundere characters in bitch/dom mode, sends me into a fervor to put them in their place
Anonymous1832214
I wouldnt mind being a dominated by a (good-hearted) Pandora. So I guess I have no idea how you can even say that...
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lol now we're getting into liking certsin things because their so non-pc =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
The idea of me taking on a female role and being dominated by a woman is bizzare to me , taking on a female role and being dominated by a man, yes.
Anonymous1832214
Yeah got it. Like Senjougahara? Lol.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But she still holds on to the delusion that she's in control.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Wait, to be more specific, I was saying I liked the idea of making a tsundere girl submit, with the tsundere becoming the sub.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Youngs manga work better than say, something like ikkitosen/highschool dxd/seikon no qwaser/highschool of the dead because they go all out with the exploitation .
Anonymous1832169
I do see a correlation between the feminine guys in yaoi and the token girls in otome. I swear I don't get why otome and other young girl series, like to play the bad boy and misogynistic treatment of women. I think they we might have lost the point in Beauty and the Beast.
Anonymous1832214
Kaiser... do you know Im Dal Young's manga? Freezing, Unbalance x Unbalance, etc. He often puts the women in the dominant role. He's gotta have a thing for it. I love that.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think going back to the complaints of yuri on ice not having enough bite to it, its the same as the fanservice in josei manga with the ambiguous bromances.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm a really pretentious guy, I love going into the psychology of it all.
Anonymous1832169
@Kaiser-Eoghan - As one teacher told me, the most memorable characters are the contradictory ones.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The western side often feels more tokenistic at times.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The feminine male character exists as a safe zone for the female reader.
Kaiser-Eoghan
No wonder I enjoyed haru deiteita so much, it did the reversal thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Yet people don't understand this when I say I find tsunderes attractive, what could be more appealing to me than a tsundere ending up losing the dominant role and becoming submissive?
Anonymous1832169
@Kaiser-Eoghan - I think I like that dichotomy, because since manga is already androgynous one does accept it more. Especially since of anime thread the line of making their male characters submissive. Also in a more design sense it might be because there's a power dynamic at play. That's why there's also harassment.
Anonymous1832214
I also agree that yuri is more established and accepted. Particularly in western media, which are starting to catch up? (lesbians everywhere...) Legend of Korra anyone?
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The weirdest thing is from my own perspective, when I play the female role in the relationship I understand taking on a more submissive role, yet in a male role, with a women I find being in a non-dominent role impossible.
Anonymous1832214
@Kaiser I'm not going to defend KnM, valid points. Again, it's done enough. And - I have a thing for tragic/platonic love so KnM clicked...
Anonymous1832169
Yuri can be cold, harsh and seduction is usually a weapon. Though a tiring trope is that most stories treat the couple as kind of sister type of affection. Or so I feel.
Kaiser-Eoghan
In terms of the pairings, my headcanon doesn't understand the petite-man thing in male to male relationships relationships/pairings , yet petit women I am obsessed with.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - I do agree. I suppose for me or at least when I did start watching it, it felt more risque, since at least in media lesbians seem more accepted than gay or flamboyant men. So I think the draw for me might be emasculation, because of the uke and seme dynamic. It is said the reason for that is to project their female audiences in more of a dominant role or something like that.
SuperMario
Hmm, I watched few episodes of Sekaiichi Hatsukoi and it's the romance that turned me off. It's just plain secual harassment
Kaiser-Eoghan
In some way its easier to physically work it out mentally.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which leads to the interesting phenomenon of fudanshiism.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The bizzarest thing is I am significantly more attracted to women than men yet find shounen-ai/yaoi more of a draw, while admitting the shoujo-ai/yuri stories out there are better.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I recall actually liking the music in gravitation at one point.
Kaiser-Eoghan
As silly melodrama it was somewhat watchable.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I felt that a certain off colour scene with Chikane felt like character assassination.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But the characterization and mecha fights are particularly messy in kannazuki, especially bringing the manga into it where the villains didn't even get 1 second backstories and the framing of the art and panels is poor, with some of dialogue, at least in the dub sounding very silly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Regarding kannazuki, I'm not going to doubt that it a kyoshiro aren't rip roaringly hilarious guilty pleasures, not that this dimnishes the anons take on the female lead.
Anonymous1832214
KnM is trash anime, but very endearing and a treasure. I love it.

(Just passing by, I'm straight male with a thing for yuri genre).
Anonymous1832169
And I think Gravitation is also because music is also part of the plot and not solely the romance. I think the last one I enjoyed was Love Stage but that only had a thing going with one side being biconfused. Though it didn't do anything with that.
Anonymous1832214
Kannazuki no Miko has a heroine who readily accepts her feelings and is in a position where it is very difficult not to empathise. Her love seems very pure and to me is very rewarding to watch.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - Yeah but then you have Utena, Aoi Hana, Noir, El Cazador de la Bruja, Madoka, and several other series that just happen to have lesbian couples. In terms of good or recognizable shounen ai, it's harder, since I think the most recognizable is Gravitation, followed by (maybe) the Nakamura ones (Seikachi Hatsukoi and his other series).
Kaiser-Eoghan
The manga is even worse than the anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
There are truly terrible yuri series though I'm sure, no idea how Kannazuki no miko became a cult thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Sadly there's too much rape in yaoi.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Oh, the gender roles thing is terrible in those things. Plenty of gay men are masculine irl.
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