Posted on 27 September 2007 with categories: Anime Reviews, Claymore


Shounen-fighting series have never been my favourite series. As far as I can recall, I’ve seen only one of them that really managed to deliver something truly original and creative that captivated me: The Law of Ueki. While Claymore doesn’t come close to that level, it does give a nice attempt, though.

While the start of the anime is just like any other serious shounen-series, as the episodes progress, it becomes clear that Claymore knows what it’s doing. Characters have sufficient backgrounds and they get fleshed out well enough outside and sometimes even during the fighting. The setting is solid and well-explored and overall, it knows how to build up very well.

Claymore basically consists out of arcs with the length of three or four episodes, with each of these arcs being different enough for everything to remain fresh. An interesting phenomenon also showed up as I kept watching: every successive arc increases the quality of the series significantly. This series starts out mediocre, but as the episodes go on, it just gets better and better and better. Even if some introductions may be dull, the conclusions for each successive arc were impressive.

This continues up to episode 20, and then something strange happens: the creators of the anime divert from the manga this series is based on, and things immediately fall apart. After that, there are still a few good moments, but it’s clear that the writers of the anime just aren’t as good as those of the manga and the result is a string of boring and overblown battles that fail to capture interest. It’s such a shame, as this anime was heading in such a good direction.

Still, don’t let that last bit ruin your enjoyment of this series. The majority of Claymore is well-written and a compelling story. The production-values are pretty good, and the soundtrack is enough to give the fights that little extra edge they need to become exciting. It may have its flaws, it may drag on a bit too much at times, but it’s definitely one of the better shounen-fighting series out there.

Posted on with categories: Claymore


And so it has finally ended. Spoilers will obviously follow, but with this series it’s not like you can’t guess what happened.

Personally, I’m not too happy with the ending. Not only did it leave even more threads open than I expected by not killing Priscilla, it also couldn’t have been more predictable. There’s an overblown fight, after which Priscilla is about to die but Raki stops Claire from killing the cute girl. Jeane then pulls back Claire from her awakened state while sacrificing herself and everyone lives happily ever after. The only one I liked here was Jeane.

By far Claymore’s biggest mistake was the behaviour of awakened beings. Not only is it never explained well (after all, we never know what’s the difference between Easley and a regular male Claymore. How does the personality of a Claymore exactly change after awakening? This anime never clearly gives an answer to that), and it mad Claire and Priscilla as personality-less as possible. Their fight could have just been replaced by a bunch of berserked monkeys.

The fact remains that I did enjoy the final fights of other anime, most importantly El Cazador, Bokura no and Seirei no Moribito. The thing that made their fights work was how the different parties all made rational decisions, and were thinking about their purposes in a clear and focused way. When the actors are mentally deluded like Claire and Priscilla, that really takes away all of the fun.

Posted on 20 September 2007 with categories: Claymore


Okay, that turned out better than expected. Claymore is still nowhere near its old level, but I liked how Claire only played a relatively small role in this episode. I didn’t like how Priscilla didn’t just kill everyone like she did with Teresa and the others, and that power-up of hers wasn’t really necessary at all (she already was the strongest, what’s the point in making her even stronger?), but Raki, Jeane, Miria, Helen and Deneve were great to watch. But yeah, you know you’ve got a problem when the side-characters turn out more interesting than the main ones.

Still, the big question remains: is the next episode really going to deliver? The episode ends with Raki screaming, which obviously is going to have some effect on both of Claire and Priscilla. Still, I do fear that the next episode is going to end with a dead Priscilla. It’s not like the current fight against Priscilla is bad or anything, but it just looks way too much like those other overblown fights in shounen-series where the two strongest X end up fighting, taking way too much episodes to do so, only for an even more powerful enemy to appear later.

This isn’t the first time I’ve been whining about Claymore, and every time I’ve been proven wrong by the climax of each respective fight. Now that the creators have deviated from the manga-storyline, will this trend continue, or do they just lack the skills to come up with a gripping storyline that the manga-writers had?

It’s just a shame that the anime is going to end in one episode. There’s so much potential in the characters who haven’t been developed yet. I actually don’t mind waiting a few years for the second season. Gunslinger Girl did it, and I’m really looking forward to its second season right now.

Posted on 13 September 2007 with categories: Claymore


Ugh… the next episode will be horribly boring: Claire vs Priscilla. I’m looking forward to episode 26, though. That’s the one where Priscila has been defeated and Claire needs to be saved. That one does hold potential, and I’m curious as to how the creators will be planning to end this series (because at this point, I am not expecting a second season for this series).

The current episode also wasn’t that bad: there was no fighting. It’s basically an aftermath, in which nearly every character gets an important bit of development. This aftermath would have been even better if the fights around it weren’t so dull, but I’m glad that at least this episode turned out good enough. Even Raki was enjoyable to watch.

Claire also was okay, when compared to the previous episode. It’s logical for her to suppress her awakening as soon as she saw Priscilla. Priscilla, however, was the only one I didn’t like. Her awakening may be explained, but it felt a bit forced if you ask me.

Posted on 6 September 2007 with categories: Claymore


Most of the times, I’m not that inclined to agree with manga-readers when company X changes the storyline of anime Y a bit. NHK ni Youkoso and Death Note, for example turned out perfectly fine, with a few flaws here and there, perhaps. xxxHolic and Bokura no also proved to be perfect adaptations, though about all these four shows, I’ve heard some (not all) manga-readers say bad things about them, but I just can’t see what was so bad about these adaptations.

With Claymore though, I’m more and more inclined to agree with them. It seems that the writers are very good at copying, but they suck when it comes with coming up with their own storylines, whereas the writers of the manga were brilliant in this. Even though I haven’t read the manga, I refuse to believe that it displayed the fight with Rigardo as dragged out and predictable as this anime did.

Because yes, I didn’t like this episode. The reason I liked this anime was because of the time and attention it spent on building up its world, and how the battles all somehow made sense and defied the usual shounen-clichés. And then this episode comes! I originally predicted that Raki would pull Claire back from awakening, but it seems that we haven’t even reached that point yet! Claire’s fight with Rigardo took an entire friggin’ EPISODE. This was precious time that could have been used so much better, for example in developing Easley some more.

The only thing I liked about this episode was the minute that was spent on every claymore apart from Claire. It seems that Jeane survived, and everyone seems to worry in a different way about Claire. These small details are the things that make Claymore shine; not the ridiculous superpowers we saw in this episode.

Please, please, please, PLEASE: do NOT end the anime with a three-episode fight between Claire and Easley! -_-

Posted on 30 August 2007 with categories: Claymore


I’ve got mixed feelings about this episode. It’s all about one plot-twist that is loved by all kinds of shounen-series as an easy plot device. A character is about to be killed, everything sounds hopeless, but then, at the last possible moment, a character (usually the main one) unlocks some hidden powers to kick the bad guy’s ass. Especially Dragonball Z loved using them.

But on the other hand, at least Claire made sense when she awakened. The sudden power didn’t come from nowhere, and the fight that lead to it was a gripping one. But then again, this fight could have easily been moved into half an episode and it did drag on at times.

In the same way, Raki was a lot less annoying in this episode, and he was actually nice to watch. But then again, I just can’t help but think that the next episode will be incredibly predictable. Claire has finished off Rigardo with her new powers, and Raki arrives just at the right moment to pull her back from being completely awakened.

To be honest, I’m not sure what to think of Claymore at the moment. Sure, the fight was great, but I keep fearing that there won’t be a second season, and that a huge amount of questions and plot-holes will be left unanswered. I mean, there is no way for the creators to stuff enough development about Alicia, Beth, and the three dwellers of the deep in the final four episodes.

There’s one thing about this episode that I’ve been wondering about, though: what the heck happened to everyone? All Rigardo did was kill the four weakest captains. There should be enough other Claymore left without them, besides, Claire, Deneve, Helen and Miria. Why didn’t we even see one single flash of them? Have they fled the battlefield? And if they did, where did they flee to? It’s a bit disappointing, as i actually hoped to see some of the unknown Claymores to stand up and help as well, but it seems that the creators had the intention to let the final end up between the major characters. I admit that I expected something better, with the huge hype that surrounded this arc.

The best part about this episode was Deneve, though. I love her internal struggles, and the fact that she wasn’t able to do anything about Undine’s death, after speaking so confident towards her that they’ll protect each other. Now she also has been badly injured, which will probably take a while to regenerate. I’d actually love it if she ends up saving Claire in the next episode.

Posted on 22 August 2007 with categories: Claymore


Hmm, this episode wasn’t as good as the previous one. Mostly because too much time was spent on Raki, who just discovered that Priscilla is an Awakened Being and kept whining about it. The fight of 24 Claymore versus 27 Awakened Beings also disappointed. There were no twists, no new things, and all the Awakened Beings looked like each other. Was this the same for the manga, or is it because of the new route that the anime decided to take?

I’ve got nothing against changing the original storyline; heck, Bokura no is currently doing a mighty fine job, but Claymore is about to screw up in two major ways. First of all, the coming chapters in the manga were rumoured to be the best parts of it. Why the heck would you want to change that, knowing this? Second, if the creators are planning to end this at episode 26, they’ve got to work really hard to wrap things up in the end. Heck, we haven’t even seen Alicia and Beth yet. If the current arc lasts three episodes as well, there are only three more episodes left for their development. Will that be enough?

Anyway, lots of people die this episode. Most notably: Veronica, Undine, Jeane and Flora. The episode gets a lot better when the Awakened Beings retreat and the second-strongest servant of Easley decides to finish things himself. He probably was a number 2 at one point, as he easily defeats some of the strongest warriors out there. The only major characters on the battlefield left are the original half-awakened ones: Claire, Miria, Helen and Deneve. They’ll probably defeat the guy with Miria’s strength in the next episode. I know that the manga-writers could have made something interesting about this, but what about the writers of the anime? The next episode will be the time that they have to prove themselves.

Posted on 16 August 2007 with categories: Claymore


So, basically because Eclipse took so long with their release for this week, I got impatient and checked out the raws. At times like these, I’m glad that I can understand them. :)

Anyway, this is one of the few Claymore-episodes without fighting, but it’s definitely one to look forward to, as there’s a really high emphasis on character-development, and this episode may have been one f the best ones of Claymore yet, especially not considering the fights.

There’s only one part I didn’t like, so I’ll start with that one: Raki. We still don’t know how the heck he ended up in the north in the first place. If I heard correctly, he’s supposed to have been victim of slave-trading in the manga, which is a perfectly good explanation, though I never heard any of the sorts in this episode. Either that or I must have missed it.

Okay, now the good stuff: Raki is getting closer to Priscilla and Isley than I thought. I’m eager to learn of the background of the two of them, as they’re definitely behaving unlike other awakened beings I’ve seen so far. Priscilla also is entirely different from the Priscilla we saw in episode eight. The creators will definitely be using this for when Claire runs into Priscilla. I wonder if Priscilla still recognizes Claire, by the way.

The biggest focus of the episode was on Deneve and Undine, though, and I both loved them. Undine proves yet again that she’s more than just a cocky muscle-machine. It seems that she has learned to always activate a small piece of her youma-powers in order to keep her muscles tense at all times. She’s just someone who likes to act tough, afraid that people will find out her true nature. That second sword of hers, it also seems to be from a good friend of hers.

Deneve was the one who found this out, and she acts really mature at this. I think I finally begin to understand why she chose to be a defensive type: unlike Claire, whose loved one was killed by an identifiable enemy (Priscilla), her loved ones (most likely her family) were killed by unknown Youma. Instead of swearing to kill off all youma, like Priscilla did, Deneve swore to protect as much as possible. That’s why she demands perfection from both herself and others.

Flora, meanwhile, shows that she’s been around since Claire’s youth, because she recognized Irene’s arm. That’s not something you do easily, since Miria, who’s a lot stronger than Flora (I assume, at least) couldn’t recognize it. Because of this, she and Jeane become some of the few to hear Claire’s raison d’Être of killing Priscilla. Flora should be getting character-development in the next few episodes.

To add to that, the fina minutes of the episode show Helen, trying to encourage a minor Claymore, who looks surprisingly unique, and it ends as the second wave of Isley’s henchmen are coming. Look forward to the next episode!

Posted on 9 August 2007 with categories: Claymore


Heh, I couldn’t help but find the second half of this episode amusing. I never thought that the writers would be stupid enough to pull such a cheesy twist as that one. Ah well, the next part of the manga is supposed to be the best part of the entire series, so it’ll be interesting to see where the creators can take it. Still, letting Raki literally fall into Priscilla? It feels a bit like a bad soap, to suddenly bring Claire’s best friend and worst enemy together.

Still, the first half was pure win. Both fights against the awakened beings were really good, and especially Undine got a great dose of character-development. Right now, we know that she isn’t a bad character. She cares for casualties, and she often likes to head into things alone, to not be indebted to anyone. She’s just like Helen, that she doesn’t really show any politeness. I also liked how Claire and Deneve stole the show with their unusual skills.

Veronica and Cynthia also get more development than I originally thought. They both seem to be defensive types, and they sure proved a great help for Jeane, who needed time to charge her drill-sword (how did she call it again?). I really hope to see more of the two of them, as they really seem like interesting characters. This fight was definitely meant to bring the entire group of Claymore closer together (surprisingly, there were no casualties). Helen, and the more useless claymores all were awesome as well. The only two who disappointed were Flora and Miria, simply because Flora hasn’t really shown any of her trump cards yet, and we didn’t get to see how Miria slaughtered her opponent.

It’s also interesting. I never really thought about it, but awakened beings can adjust their appearances to their will. Riful obviously wasn’t a little kid when she awakened, and Priscilla has now also taken on a new form. It’s interesting how they al chose cute and innocent forms. We’ve seen two awakened beings who go as little girls, Priscilla turned into a teenager and Isley is a pretty bishounen. I wonder what the one from the South chose for her appearance. Will we see her as well, by the way?

It’s also ironic that Priscilla finds that Raki smells good, as the scent basically indirectly comes from Teresa. I assume that she’s grateful to her now, because she caused her to awaken.

Posted on 2 August 2007 with categories: Claymore


Heh, and here I thought that this episode would disappoint. I was proven totally wrong when this episode comes and brings no less than twenty-four Claymore in one place, in order to fight the awakened beings in the north. It’s clear that this is just a way for the organization to buy time. They’re quite predictable once you figure them out. First, they sent out the worst possible party to Riful of the West, to show her that she isn’t going to get anything good that easily and now they send out an entire army of Claymore, but with the best four of them missing.

This is understandable, though, It seems that the little incident of Priscilla made a huge impact on them as well, and they now know that they shouldn’t waste their top-Claymore that easily. That does raise an interesting question, though: are Alicia and Beth really as good as their numbers seem to suggest? The two of them may have special powers and all, but because they’re so protected by the organization, they do lack the battle experience in really dangerous situations. I may be wrong, but I think it’s safe to assume that number five, Rafaela, is the real strongest Claymore.

Anyway, about the episode, many interesting new characters were introduced. We see Helen, Deneve and Miria return. Number eight, Flora, seems to have the fastest ability to draw her sword and attack. I assume that she’ll be a major character for this arc, due to the huge amount of screentime she already has. Same goes for number eleven, Undine. Interestingly enough, they all ended up fighting alongside Claire at the end of the episode.

Number 13 seems to be Veronica, though I don’t think she’ll get much of development, unfortunately. I do wish that some more unknown Claymore show their personalities in the next couple of episodes. I also hope for these male awakened beings to get fleshed out a bit more. Right now, only the spider one that Jeane was up against looked interesting and I hope that they turn into more than just random goons. But then again, Claymore has showed that it can make some pretty interesting antagonists. I’m looking forward to the next episode.

CHANGE USERNAME
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Moreso than the girls death obsession, I thought the stuff with the mother in the first chapter of yakedo has the potential to go in a more messed up way.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But he fails miserably and no one learns from his crimes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Why can't there be a BENEVOLENT killer character that commits horrible acts solely to shock people and show how horrifying those acts are, out of the delusion that it will inspire a reflection and change in people to NOT, to NEVER do those things.
Kaiser-Eoghan
*higher
Kaiser-Eoghan
Maybe an abused character is a servant in a historical setting with a hierarchy, trapped in societal rules and defeats the obsession with the attacker and raises up against the class system/character of hire social standing that abused them.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Perhaps the cannibal killer character in the story has abandonment, severe paranoia and lonliness issues and sees his crimes as taking people inside him so they'll never leave him.
Kaiser-Eoghan
of psychological depth instead?
Kaiser-Eoghan
For the willingness to throw messed up stuff into stories, I wouldn't mind seeing an analysis thrown in, doing a story about a cannibal character? How about instead of just a gore fest, get inside is head and ask, why does he do this? I hate Ntr and its used as a throwaway turn-on involving rape eroticism, but is there any any way that a story involving that could be framed with some sense
Kaiser-Eoghan
Back on to stuff like goblin slayer, they can take out the rape scenes I wouldn't miss them, although I find them less uncomfortable, BECAUSE they are shown as how wrong rape is, instead of say a doujin playing it up for titilation .
Kaiser-Eoghan
Despite all the talking up of tsunderes, I actually love kuuderes, in the end probably the biggest reason is for how flat chested they are.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Slapstick violence always plays second to dry, dark, screwball or surreal humour.
Bokusen
Also, on tsunderes, me too. I can't stand people using physical violence on someone unless it's in self-defense, or a Fate-type scenario where they all know everyone is trying to kill everyone else. Random physical violence played up as comedy is the worst.
Bokusen
@Kaiser Ah, so it was referring to bondage. I was skimming through posts and must've missed that. Bondage still creeps me out a bit, but if it's a fetish thing I can at least understand the whole exaggerated gender roles thing.
AidanAK47
In regards to Tsunderes, yep that was a bad choice of words there Kaiser. But over time I have come to find Tsunderes more agavating. Tsunderes like Rin are fine but those that beat the crap out of the guy they like and are expected to be forgiven cause they get embarrassed can go straight to hell.
AidanAK47
Also who cares who Korra ends up with? She a goddamn horrible character. I hated her so much.
AidanAK47
Korra was a show that had love realistionships come out of nowhere(And not well written in general) but that one really was just pandering to the Korra/Asami shippers. Not sure where the hell that ship came from to begin with.
Lenlo
I agree Aidan, the love at the end of Korra came out of Left field really
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: It was inappropriate and I shouldn't have said it.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Heck one of the reasons I prefer seeing another character with another character or a character simply on their own in a fetish situation is because I can distance myself from it and not feel like I'm touching anything/one.
Kaiser-Eoghan
If anything I meant role reversal.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: I apologize, reading it back it sounds terrible, I was actually referring to bondage where the tsundere pretends to hate it initially but consents .
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Bokusen: I should state clearly that that is merely a fantasy. The anger on both sides makes it easier because even if things became more physical or intimate it would feel more distant if the talking part was she and myself saying how much we hated it , despite actualily liking it.
Bokusen
"The thing is I utterly hate the personalities of tsundere characters in bitch/dom mode, sends me into a fervor to put them in their place." OK, reading that just creeped me out.
AidanAK47
@Kaiser, well you like screwed up stuff so no surprise.
Try Yakedo Shoujo. Get the feeling you will like that one quite a bit.
AidanAK47
@Anon, Legend of Korra? There was no yuri in that one. No evidence whatsoever. They just had Korra and Asami walk into some light and then announced them gay over twitter. Honesty I didn't see it in the show itself.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Also was it you that recommended happy sugar life to me? That was a pretty good psychological horror manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Aidan: Going back several messages, I kind of liked goblin slayer oddly.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - Read Sakuranbo Syndrome.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: At the same time I really think more series like after the rain need to come out, showing more sensitive approaches.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Nudity/sex just isn't used functionally well enough or dramatically as it should. Come on, give us a story about passionette characters, sensual/erotic rather than only porn. Or do a scums wish where miserable people are doing it because saaaaad.
Kaiser-Eoghan
kuuchuu is really one of those things I need to re-watch, I became so much more open to weirder shows in the past number of years than I would have been ages ago.
Anonymous1832169
I think my excuse in hentai, is that despair, and subjugation adds drama to a very simple thing. Though Dawn of the Silver Dragon may be the peak of objectification.
Anonymous1832214
Sure, np, though I must be off. Again, nice to chat casually. Been off forums for a while. Bye.
PS: thank you gift for anyone not familiar https://myanimelist.net/anime/6774/Kuuchuu_Buranko?q=kuuchuu
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lets talk about the spring 2018 anime season chart: http://anichart.net/spring-2018
Kaiser-Eoghan
Mods, I'm sorry for hostaging/dominating the chat like this I'll change subject.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I do think official/canon pairings of characters make more sense definitely, non-canon ones can kind of cheapen characters.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I really really want to say though, I totally am not okay with rape in hentai though and I don't like 50 shades of grey.
Kaiser-Eoghan
To get off this subject, funny little random memory here of reading manga in public, back when I was still into fate, some street person sat down next to me and saw a picture of berserk and said "Oh, he's quite ripped isn't he"
Anonymous1832214
@Anon could be
@Kaiser Srsly youd hate Young's Aflame Inferno - narcissistic manipulative elite MC guy plays a sub to a playful manipulative OP demon woman. I love that so much..!
Kaiser-Eoghan
The old artists valued some interesting takes on beauty too, all of those middle aged larger bodies.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Someone has read this and gone off and done an Akira x Satan devilman doujin haven't they?
Kaiser-Eoghan
On the beauty and the beast thing, I wonder if characters like Elias from Mahouyome will become more popular. Monsterboys might end up catching on.
Anonymous1832169
Anonymous1832214 - I think so, I mean we paint angels following that idea.
Anonymous1832214
Thx for the talk guys (and girls). Btw. I'm the guy with weird nicks, Evaluation, Strength, Victim, etc in case anyone's wondering.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think regarding role switching and whether I prefer being dom or sub is definately based on which gender I'm playing, this goes back to the cliches of girl=the submissive character man=is the non-submissive.
Anonymous1832214
There's something about androgynous features, is there?
Kaiser-Eoghan
accept of course for the sensei, who looks like one-punchman.
Anonymous1832214
Seems consistent with your preferences towards domination. Open your heart more and feel the love. They cant help themselves. They need you to get it out. Why not play the mature person, not play the game and accept their flawed selves?
Kaiser-Eoghan
Specifically due the ambiguity.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Houseki's character designs and art is fascinating.
Anonymous1832169
I like the idea of women pretending to be men and men pretending to be women. Not necessarily transgender, just in the sense of playing the role like Hercules and Diomedes.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Hating them makes it easier/better aswell.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The thing is I utterly hate the personalities of tsundere characters in bitch/dom mode, sends me into a fervor to put them in their place
Anonymous1832214
I wouldnt mind being a dominated by a (good-hearted) Pandora. So I guess I have no idea how you can even say that...
Kaiser-Eoghan
Lol now we're getting into liking certsin things because their so non-pc =P
Kaiser-Eoghan
The idea of me taking on a female role and being dominated by a woman is bizzare to me , taking on a female role and being dominated by a man, yes.
Anonymous1832214
Yeah got it. Like Senjougahara? Lol.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But she still holds on to the delusion that she's in control.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Wait, to be more specific, I was saying I liked the idea of making a tsundere girl submit, with the tsundere becoming the sub.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Youngs manga work better than say, something like ikkitosen/highschool dxd/seikon no qwaser/highschool of the dead because they go all out with the exploitation .
Anonymous1832169
I do see a correlation between the feminine guys in yaoi and the token girls in otome. I swear I don't get why otome and other young girl series, like to play the bad boy and misogynistic treatment of women. I think they we might have lost the point in Beauty and the Beast.
Anonymous1832214
Kaiser... do you know Im Dal Young's manga? Freezing, Unbalance x Unbalance, etc. He often puts the women in the dominant role. He's gotta have a thing for it. I love that.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I think going back to the complaints of yuri on ice not having enough bite to it, its the same as the fanservice in josei manga with the ambiguous bromances.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm a really pretentious guy, I love going into the psychology of it all.
Anonymous1832169
@Kaiser-Eoghan - As one teacher told me, the most memorable characters are the contradictory ones.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The western side often feels more tokenistic at times.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The feminine male character exists as a safe zone for the female reader.
Kaiser-Eoghan
No wonder I enjoyed haru deiteita so much, it did the reversal thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Yet people don't understand this when I say I find tsunderes attractive, what could be more appealing to me than a tsundere ending up losing the dominant role and becoming submissive?
Anonymous1832169
@Kaiser-Eoghan - I think I like that dichotomy, because since manga is already androgynous one does accept it more. Especially since of anime thread the line of making their male characters submissive. Also in a more design sense it might be because there's a power dynamic at play. That's why there's also harassment.
Anonymous1832214
I also agree that yuri is more established and accepted. Particularly in western media, which are starting to catch up? (lesbians everywhere...) Legend of Korra anyone?
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: The weirdest thing is from my own perspective, when I play the female role in the relationship I understand taking on a more submissive role, yet in a male role, with a women I find being in a non-dominent role impossible.
Anonymous1832214
@Kaiser I'm not going to defend KnM, valid points. Again, it's done enough. And - I have a thing for tragic/platonic love so KnM clicked...
Anonymous1832169
Yuri can be cold, harsh and seduction is usually a weapon. Though a tiring trope is that most stories treat the couple as kind of sister type of affection. Or so I feel.
Kaiser-Eoghan
In terms of the pairings, my headcanon doesn't understand the petite-man thing in male to male relationships relationships/pairings , yet petit women I am obsessed with.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - I do agree. I suppose for me or at least when I did start watching it, it felt more risque, since at least in media lesbians seem more accepted than gay or flamboyant men. So I think the draw for me might be emasculation, because of the uke and seme dynamic. It is said the reason for that is to project their female audiences in more of a dominant role or something like that.
SuperMario
Hmm, I watched few episodes of Sekaiichi Hatsukoi and it's the romance that turned me off. It's just plain secual harassment
Kaiser-Eoghan
In some way its easier to physically work it out mentally.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which leads to the interesting phenomenon of fudanshiism.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The bizzarest thing is I am significantly more attracted to women than men yet find shounen-ai/yaoi more of a draw, while admitting the shoujo-ai/yuri stories out there are better.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I recall actually liking the music in gravitation at one point.
Kaiser-Eoghan
As silly melodrama it was somewhat watchable.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I felt that a certain off colour scene with Chikane felt like character assassination.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But the characterization and mecha fights are particularly messy in kannazuki, especially bringing the manga into it where the villains didn't even get 1 second backstories and the framing of the art and panels is poor, with some of dialogue, at least in the dub sounding very silly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Regarding kannazuki, I'm not going to doubt that it a kyoshiro aren't rip roaringly hilarious guilty pleasures, not that this dimnishes the anons take on the female lead.
Anonymous1832214
KnM is trash anime, but very endearing and a treasure. I love it.

(Just passing by, I'm straight male with a thing for yuri genre).
Anonymous1832169
And I think Gravitation is also because music is also part of the plot and not solely the romance. I think the last one I enjoyed was Love Stage but that only had a thing going with one side being biconfused. Though it didn't do anything with that.
Anonymous1832214
Kannazuki no Miko has a heroine who readily accepts her feelings and is in a position where it is very difficult not to empathise. Her love seems very pure and to me is very rewarding to watch.
Anonymous1832169
Kaiser-Eoghan - Yeah but then you have Utena, Aoi Hana, Noir, El Cazador de la Bruja, Madoka, and several other series that just happen to have lesbian couples. In terms of good or recognizable shounen ai, it's harder, since I think the most recognizable is Gravitation, followed by (maybe) the Nakamura ones (Seikachi Hatsukoi and his other series).
Kaiser-Eoghan
The manga is even worse than the anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
There are truly terrible yuri series though I'm sure, no idea how Kannazuki no miko became a cult thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Sadly there's too much rape in yaoi.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: Oh, the gender roles thing is terrible in those things. Plenty of gay men are masculine irl.
Anonymous1832169
Borrowed from Japanese 百合 (yuri, “lily”), by analogy to 薔薇 (bara, “rose”), indicating gay men.
Anonymous1832169
Shoujo AI and even Yuri, are more romance than eros. There could be like 10 or more chapters without any intimate action and I suppose that's also part in why yuri tends to achieve better stories.
Anonymous1832169
Also the formula is so transparent that one scrolls to the end, to see ehem, the good part.
Anonymous1832169
And finally like the typical chick flick there's rarely anything important beyond the relationship. I even say those who try a little may be the better ones in this genre.
Anonymous1832169
Now you know what you should expect. Because that's the issue. In Shounen Ai or Yaoi for the most part. Secondary characters have no issue with these relationships. Second problem is that the couple both are put in the male and female part of the relationship.
Anonymous1832169
In defense of yaoi. Do anyone know the meaning behind that word? From Japanese やおい (yaoi), an acronym of Yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi (ヤマなし、オチなし、意味なし), "no climax, no point, no meaning
Kaiser-Eoghan
I'm actually not even overly interested in either show.
Kaiser-Eoghan
But yes, its stupid that yuri on ice didn't go all the way.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I believe citrus is actually aim at girls, going by the magazine its serialized in.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And a yuri manga would probably be more explicit than shoujo-ai.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Well you're comparing shounen-ai to yuri , so of course citrus will be more explicit , just like yaoi would be more explicit than shounen-ai.
AidanAK47
And I am not arguing that gay people can't have fanservice shows. As a matter of fact I am arguing why the bar is so much lower. Yuri on Ice has people fangirling over an "implied kiss" while I look over to the other side to see Citrus reaching second base.
AidanAK47
@Anon, not say you can't like the show but it was queer baiting. The show was comical in how it it made it clear it's characters were gay but didn't even have the balls to show a kiss on screen. Meanwhile you have Citrus here showing two girls having full make out sessions without trouble. I have no interest whatsoever in seeing two men kiss but even I can admit that is bullshit.
KTravlos
interesting conversation. Must say I do not usually react much to the sexuality of characters in anime, but this is partly because I might not see the problem, or because most of the anime I watch have sexuality only incidentally.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Of course I don't want to dismiss the fact that hentai manga for gay men exists,if one wanted it there is seinen yaoi, ie Bara manga.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Which I attribute it to being less passive than just watching something.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I will say, I do think self-insertion is more effective in relation to videogames.
Kaiser-Eoghan
On this I as a bicurious man agree, when I read a romance story, I just want ad like a romance ore relationship story, its not special to me what the race or orientation of characters are.
Kaiser-Eoghan
My brother also felt that romance stories involving homosexual characters often falter in a space where the same sex pairing becomes more about pure novelty than just being a love story.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Imredjimmy, who posted on here as a user before, he himself homosexual had issues with yaoi manga, feeling that it didn't address issues properly.
Kaiser-Eoghan
He feels "All romance stories belong in the romance section and shouldn't be too categorized and that most yaoi/yuri isn't really for the homosexual audience"
Kaiser-Eoghan
Is it really fanservice for a homosexual audience though? I do find both male and female characters attractive as a bicurious man but it has to be admitted, shounen-ai and yaoi is really a thing for girls and bi men, I can admit that. My brother, a gay man is very critical of yaoi/shounen-ai as well as yuri/shoujo-ai.
Anonymous1831032
You are overly critical
Anonymous1831032
why can't gay people have 'fanservice' without being compared to fish blindly poking for worms and being caught by some manipulative fisherman? It's 'normal' for weebs to watch 'cutesy' or 'moe' shows.
Anonymous1831032
Who cares dude. I liked the show. The term 'queer baiting' is fucking insulting.
Vonter
@Kaiser-Eoghan - I agree with that, there is a lot of meandering in Hourou Musuko manga, it makes it feel more realistic and grounded. But there's a reason many storytellers don't tell the most boring aspects of real life, like constantly pondering about what the future may bring.
Vonter
Pokemon and Zelda let the community make the conjectures and the creators mostly shy away from explaining them, because they fear they'll write themselves into a corner.
Vonter
I mean, not all things should make statements. Ranma 1/2 is recognizable, despite being a comedy. Conan is iconic and its just contained mystery stories, despite the themes of Evangelion the creators have admitted the use of christian elements was because of aesthetics, moreso than delivering a statement.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Mario: Some felt that the manga for hourou musuko felt more low key in tone than the anime.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Travlos, I've noticed the site seems to be giving you trouble setting a username sometimes, best to just create an account instead.
AidanAK47
@Anon, that respect seems on different levels for people though. I mean I seen people championed Yuri on Ice as a major win for LGBT representation in anime while I myself just saw it as queer baiting seeing as the series itself couldn't admit it's characters were gay.
Anonymous1829806
Travlos here: I know many of the AoTitan fans hate the new direction of the manga, but I love it. Gimme more war!

While I love the ideas in Birdy the Mighty, the pace of the mangaka is maddening.
Anonymous1829447
Well, one last thing. I understand that anime like games or movies are a refuge for people who want to escape from politics for a second. But when mangakas bring those topics up themselves with stupid yaoi, gender bender, or yuri fan service, they're the ones politicizing anime and manga, not people like me. If they'd treat it with respect, then there would be no need for outcry.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Lenlo: Eh sorry about that, I almost launched into a rant about tumblr.
Lenlo
Yeah, id prefer not to get to political in this chat, but I agree with Aidan. Theres a limit, and I strike that limit at the + of LGBTQ+. There comes a point where your just making things up to be special
Kaiser-Eoghan
Looking back I probably read hourou musuko initially to get a better understanding of the topic it covered.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Not looking for cares/attention/fellating/self promoting, just felt a moment to pseudo-intellectualize because it was related to the identity topic.
Kaiser-Eoghan
From a psychological standpoint, apparently this is linked in with autism to some level.
Kaiser-Eoghan
The idea of cosplay as a thing is fascinating honestly as an escapist thing.
Kaiser-Eoghan
And I imagine it would probably be easier to interact in a relationship as someone else, of course with them being aware of that.
Kaiser-Eoghan
More in a religious/spiritual sense however and having a greater sense of identity/feeling through temporarily taking on the role of someone else.
Kaiser-Eoghan
but the person themselves.
Kaiser-Eoghan
I did have ideas after hourou musuko and also finding out someone was trans that that might have applied to me and I still use female names in some sites but I really just came to realize it wasn't about trying the female clothes thing numerous times, wasn't trans(vestite or sexual), really pretty much found out I temporarily can take on roles of what/who I dress as, not due to gender
Kaiser-Eoghan
Oh, tumblr sjws are a parody of leftism /activism .
AidanAK47
People have the right to be whatever they want to be. That said there is a line when it comes to respecting peoples choices. For example, I don't think we need Tumblrs 40 different Genders.
Kaiser-Eoghan
@Anon: I haven't read the lesbian experience one.
Kaiser-Eoghan
Love my life was another good one, a serious shoujo-ai manga.
Anonymous1829213
That's unfortunate. TvT
Anonymous1829200
no thanks
Anonymous1829213
In the future though, I'd like to see something exploring sexuality as a whole even further. Even LGBT in and of itself implies a gender/sexuality binary. Let's get into the gender neutral/fluid, pansexuality, and so on as well. :.D
Anonymous1829200
and i like the
Anonymous1829200
i have one
Anonymous1829213
And I definitely agree - those manga exist and are excellent. ^_^
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